Ron Avery Talks the Science of the Draw Stroke

[ToddG]

Regarding the draw, I'm saying yes. Todd, I think, is saying no.

It depends still on what you mean by "modify technique."

Can I draw to a 6' tall target and a 4' tall target? Yes. I wouldn't call that modifying my technique but obviously the two draws aren't identical. I can draw slower to a low% target without changing technique, either, just like someone who indexes might have to "modify" his technique by pausing and refining a sight picture after extension. I wouldn't call that a different technique.

A draw that actually requires my muscles to move in a different path, however, is a problem. It's pretty basic neuroscience. "Muscle memory" forms through repetition. If someone spends his time and energy creating a neural pathway that responds to the mental command draw then that's what's going to happen under stress when the brain screams draw! As I've said before, the concept of falling back on one's training under stress has been a truism for many years.

And it's easily demonstrated. Just look at the contact/ECQC type problem and the way the draw has to change to accommodate it. Whether it's a much different draw than normal or simply stopping earlier in the normal series of motions and firing "out of sequence," as it were, it's a genuinely different technique. Craig Douglas has remarked more than once that it's the people who've thought about and practiced this different draw who pull it off under stress. People who haven't, people who simply believe they're smart enough or tactical enough or calm enough to figure it out on the fly usually aren't as successful.

The close contact problem is a necessary evil in terms of wanting a single all-encompassing draw. No matter how you slice it, a draw that doesn't go to extension is necessarily going to be different than one that does. So that means one more thing to practice enough that it gets its own mental trigger resulting in its own subconscious reaction.

I don't want to add to that a high% draw, low% draw, open field draw, confined space draw, etc., etc.

[dbateman]

Theres some good ideas in this thread.

I'll go back and reread it.

[JHC]

It depends still on what you mean by "modify technique."

Can I draw to a 6' tall target and a 4' tall target? Yes. I wouldn't call that modifying my technique but obviously the two draws aren't identical. I can draw slower to a low% target without changing technique, either, just like someone who indexes might have to "modify" his technique by pausing and refining a sight picture after extension. I wouldn't call that a different technique.

A draw that actually requires my muscles to move in a different path, however, is a problem. It's pretty basic neuroscience. "Muscle memory" forms through repetition. If someone spends his time and energy creating a neural pathway that responds to the mental command draw then that's what's going to happen under stress when the brain screams draw! As I've said before, the concept of falling back on one's training under stress has been a truism for many years.

And it's easily demonstrated. Just look at the contact/ECQC type problem and the way the draw has to change to accommodate it. Whether it's a much different draw than normal or simply stopping earlier in the normal series of motions and firing "out of sequence," as it were, it's a genuinely different technique. Craig Douglas has remarked more than once that it's the people who've thought about and practiced this different draw who pull it off under stress. People who haven't, people who simply believe they're smart enough or tactical enough or calm enough to figure it out on the fly usually aren't as successful.

The close contact problem is a necessary evil in terms of wanting a single all-encompassing draw. No matter how you slice it, a draw that doesn't go to extension is necessarily going to be different than one that does. So that means one more thing to practice enough that it gets its own mental trigger resulting in its own subconscious reaction.

I don't want to add to that a high% draw, low% draw, open field draw, confined space draw, etc., etc.

Isn't martial arts and esp full contact fighting (esp MMA) chuck full of the application of vastly different techniques chosen under great stress in split seconds? Doesn't neuroscience make all that possible also?

[ToddG]

Isn't martial arts and esp full contact fighting (esp MMA) chuck full of the application of vastly different techniques chosen under great stress in split seconds? Doesn't neuroscience make all that possible also?

JHC -- I'm not remotely qualified to comment on MMA type stuff except insofar as I don't think the typical MMA guy practices one punch -- and only one punch -- ten thousand times then expects to pull a different punch out of the ether when he suddenly needs it. But I'll defer to Cecil on the issue. It's an interesting comparison.

[beltjones]

JHC -- I'm not remotely qualified to comment on MMA type stuff except insofar as I don't think the typical MMA guy practices one punch -- and only one punch -- ten thousand times then expects to pull a different punch out of the ether when he suddenly needs it. But I'll defer to Cecil on the issue. It's an interesting comparison.

I think this is a pretty weak straw man argument. There are no facts in evidence that suggest that anyone practices a specific draw ten thousand times and then expects to pull off something different.

Take someone like Vogel. He has a draw he uses for stand-and-shoot stuff, another for IDPA, another for table starts, another for unloaded starts, another for his former duty gear, another for his actual concealed carry gun, and so on. However, only a neophyte would suggest that someone like Vogel (or Avery) only works on one draw. To take it a step further, only a neophyte would suggest these are all somehow that different from each other. I'm sure to him they're all minor variations on the same theme, and working on each one builds general familiarity with his gunhandling that allows him to seemlessly adjust if presented with an unusual circumstance. Sort of like an MMA fighter who is able to make minor adjustments to his kick boxing technique depending on what his opponent presents.

[Hruk]

Isn't martial arts and esp full contact fighting (esp MMA) chuck full of the application of vastly different techniques chosen under great stress in split seconds? Doesn't neuroscience make all that possible also?

If you watch enough video of one fighter you start to see tendencies, they will prefer to go on move over another because they've practiced it more. What it seems Todd is getting at, is you will do the same if you have to draw your pistol.

Meaning if you don't practice drawing to position 2 or 3, it will be highly unlikely that you wont fall back on you're training and preform a full draw to position 4

It also seems that the simple fact that you are here on this forum points to the point that you don't practice on draw over andover and expect to make changes. In my personal life I do know people that do this, my dad does this, among other things that I wont get into now that make me believe that if he had to draw his pistol in a life or death situation he wouldn't be able to use it to defend himself

[JHC]

If you watch enough video of one fighter you start to see tendencies, they will prefer to go on move over another because they've practiced it more. What it seems Todd is getting at, is you will do the same if you have to draw your pistol.

Meaning if you don't practice drawing to position 2 or 3, it will be highly unlikely that you wont fall back on you're training and preform a full draw to position 4

In full contact sparring (MMA-ish) I've pulled combo's outta my ass and combined technique together in ways I've never drilled, to stop a bigger, stronger, superior striker of an opponent from beating my head in; in real time. And it worked well. I've done almost 99.9% of my reloads static a certain way and in a match I've executed it very well running behind cover through tight quarters where the mechanics of it had to change to working up under my chin. Worked well.

I think we under estimate what a switched on brain can do. That's all. I don't see it in black/white terms.

[dbateman]

JHC -- I'm not remotely qualified to comment on MMA type stuff except insofar as I don't think the typical MMA guy practices one punch -- and only one punch -- ten thousand times then expects to pull a different punch out of the ether when he suddenly needs it. But I'll defer to Cecil on the issue. It's an interesting comparison.

Well I feel qualified to answer that, I'm not Cecil and I don't even know who that person is.

However I did spend some time as a fighter in boxing, kickboxing and Mauy Thai I did train in a gyms that teach grappling and MMA but it wasn't my thing.

I did spend time grappling but when I was in training I had anywhere up to seven training sessions week so not a loot of time to play around with other things, also I didn't want to get an injury that could affect me in a fight.

I predominately trained Muay Thai I did do a few boxing fights but most where Thai rules.

When I fought I wasn't out there experimenting I was using techniques and combinations that I had trained, but I can string them together in thousands of different ways.

We were trained to fight left or right handed.

Multiple different way to do the same thing.

There were times I would play around in a fight but they were when I knew I had it over my opponent... but it doesn't take much to lose a fight.

The same goes for pistol shooting in my mind anyway there are a few way I can do things I can draw a few different ways run my gun with one hand draw weak handed out of my strong side holster reload one handed, I'm not fast at doing it but I can do it.

Sure I have my preferred technique but I can change on the fly as I see fit.

I do tend to feel that no matter what you do if you have your fundamentals down pat and have the drive you will do very well in whatever you do.

But then again I'm no guru.

[Cory_]

I"ll be the first to say I could feel myself going on the trigger early a few times during filming of the video. Working on a new type of draw and shooting in front of these two had me feeling a little unnerved. But I pulled my head out of my ass and listened to what was being said. Ron was very clear on his instruction about finger, trigger and safety.

[Al T.]

Welcome Cory.

Ron has published a new video where he addresses trigger management. I think he's reading this board.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URLTraSQvmE