Instructors - Have You Ever Told a Student to Get a Different Gun?

[jlw]

I prefer teaching basic entry level and firearms safety course over things more advanced. One of the things that I often see is ladies who have had a husband/boyfriend/father/gun-store-employee/etc convince them that the only gun for them is a J-frame.

I'm not bashing the J-frame at all as I regularly carry one, but while they are often pushed on ladies due to the ease of loading, etc, more than a few have triggers that are somewhat lacking. In my last class, one lady brought a model 36 with a trigger so heavy that she couldn't pull it.

I spent time with each of the ladies teaching them how to properly work a slide using push/pull leverage. Before the class was over, each one of them was successfully loading and getting accurate shots with semi-autos including my Glock and a Kimber 1911.

Reports back from husbands/boyfriends/fathers is that I cost one of them his Colt Gold Cup and another that received demands for new pistols from his wife and daughter.

[Prdator]

Before yet another ridiculous internet rumor starts spreading... I have never prevented a student from using any type of safe handgun in a class, including many who've opted to shoot CZs.

TLG, I concur!, Sorry for my bad attempt at misguided humor.





A few other thoughts on gun fit.
One of my great Training partners did a hardware change and Drastically improved his shooting, Immediately!! He switched from Glock to and M&P, with his had size the M&P fit has hands much better and his shooting performance showed it!!

This came hard though he put several Thousand rounds though his Glocks and was in Several training classes, before he changed, and this was only after shooting a few "loaner" M&P's and finding his shooting improved.

So for some cases a hardware change can increase the shooters capability but this should only happen quickly if the gun in question is unreliable ( See TLG's post above) or to large for the shooters hands. The P30 is the most adaptable handgun for fit of a shooters hands out there!! Plus several different trigger systems, ah I so have to buy one some day!!

[LOKNLOD]

A few other thoughts on gun fit.
One of my great Training partners did a hardware change and Drastically improved his shooting, Immediately!! He switched from Glock to and M&P, with his had size the M&P fit has hands much better and his shooting performance showed it!!

This came hard though he put several Thousand rounds though his Glocks and was in Several training classes, before he changed, and this was only after shooting a few "loaner" M&P's and finding his shooting improved.

Similarly, that process mirrors how I ended up with a safe full of Glocks and a holster full of P30...

And when I shot Prdator's Gen 4 G17 the other day it reminded me that it was the right choice; we talked about this exactly.

There is a big difference between falling into the trap of chasing new guns as a solution to training/experience issues versus recognizing you're struggling unnecessarily with something and figuring out how to remove the stumbling block from your path forward.

[Aray]

Trigger control is a skill, the recommendation of masking poor trigger control with a custom gun is a disservice to the student.

[Chuck Haggard]

Not students strictly, but I have told people on my range that they might be better off trading in the Jennings/Lorcin/Taurus/etc. that they were trying to qual with and buy a real gun.

Seriously.

It's rampant with the newer armored car guys around here. They could take a perfectly good K or L frame company gun but they have to buy a semi-auto because that's what's cool in movies, so they head to the pawn shop and buy the cheapest pistol they can find.

I did tell a gal once, like 5'1" and a buck 'o five that perhaps the Beretta 92 she was struggling with may not be the best choice for her.

I'll teach someone to shoot damn near anything, but you can only take modifying the mechanics of things like grip so far.

[Josh Runkle]

As an instructor, I've spent a lot of time and money in the firearms industry, and so a gun that is $450 is not an "expensive" gun to me. However, that may be well beyond the realm of someone else. They might have saved for months to buy that Ruger P95 they showed up at class with.

When I might decided to tell them to buy a different gun is when they plan on carrying it, yet it malfunctions constantly and is not reliable.

I always start with trying to get what they have up and running, whether that's changing out mags or ammo or modifying the gun itself. If that won't work I ask them to have a gunsmith check it out to see if they can work out the reliability issues. If that fails, I tell them, "Hey, your firearm is still something you can take to the range, but it's not something I would recommend relying upon if you need it to save your life."

Now, if it's simply the OPs scenario, that's silly. A P30 or beretta 92, either one is fine. Change the student, not the gun, unless there is something physically wrong with the gun, or the student has a physical limitation in terms of a handicap.

[TCinVA]

Only a couple of times, and only when it was plainly obvious that the individual was completely unsuited to the weapon. Example: I did some basic instruction for a lady who was interested in getting a carry permit. Her husband had decided in his infinite wisdom that she should have a Para Ordnance Warthog. So the first pistol she's ever fired is some hopelessly awkward thing with monster recoil. She was so scared of the pistol she was literally turning her head and closing her eyes when she shot.

She needed a different pistol.

If a weapon genuinely doesn't fit someone then getting another gun can help them progress.

In your case the instructor is just wrong. The simple fact is that with the proper instruction and practice you can learn to shoot the P30 extremely well. Unfortunately there are a lot of "instructors" out there who have no idea how to diagnose a student's issues and no idea on how to offer useful feedback to help a student progress. Instructors who are really good at diagnosing what you are doing wrong and who have a game plan to help you improve are rare, in my experience. (And I've done a little bit of this training stuff...there's a reason why I spend my time and money repeatedly with instructors like Larry Vickers and ToddG) When they encounter the limitations of their knowledge it's not uncommon to suggest an equipment change in the hopes it offers improvement. The truth is that the benefits from an equipment change are generally short-lived...hence the phenomenon of people buying a new gun every few months looking for the gun that will make up for their deficit in skill and understanding.

I rarely advise that someone buys another gun. Generally people are much better served by doing their homework to learn the gun they have.

[NGCSUGrad09]

My first answer is my business degree answer of it depends...

With that in mind, it depends on what the class is over and the students objectives for using a firearm. GENERALLY, any corrections are to be made with the shooter and adapting to the particular platform. There have been instances where a recommendation of a hardware change is to the shooters benefit. To the OP, I don't believe a change in firearm would be one of those instances. Sure it would be easier to learn on a gun with a lighter trigger and shorter reset, but it is not required to do so. On the other hand, if the OP had say an injury or major surgery on the hand that made a heavier trigger was cause pain or be physically unable to pull the trigger, then yes changing the gun would be something to consider.

Side note: A common problem I've seen is that people want to chase the "perfect" piece of kit or firearm that will make them better without putting in the work to do so. I find myself recommending someone to stay with one pistol/platform and learn it well. We all change stuff around from time to time, but the imprtant part is understanding why a change is made and then working with it to find a benefit.

[jetfire]

Before yet another ridiculous internet rumor starts spreading... I have never prevented a student from using any type of safe handgun in a class, including many who've opted to shoot CZs.

I do seem to remember you telling me to get something other than my Sig 1911 because it might explode and kill everyone at the class.

[rsa-otc]

I do seem to remember you telling me to get something other than my Sig 1911 because it might explode and kill everyone at the class.

That sounds like a safety issue to me.