5.56mm 55gr GMX

[Molon]

Now if Molon will run some 10 round group analysis on this new 55 grain GMX pill . . .

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[JHC]

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Yeah thanks. I was on my way to delete edit that.

[BLR]

I don't care. The 77 grain Black Hills load I used, at the ranges I used them at killed in spectacular fashion. (Doc, I assume BH used the SMK. In the 68 gr I think they were Hornady. I've hunted with 75 grain TAP but never shot anything with it.)

But I'm not wedded to OTM. I used them when they were "the thing". Then I tried the Nosler. Awesome load. Then the Barnes. Got some of this new Razorback bullet built for hogs. Will try those if I don't find some of these from the OP.

So beyond killing lung/heart shot deer dead within 40 yards of impact, what makes a good deer rifle? Exit wounds or blood trails? Check, I could follow my short trails by the blood blowing out their noses. You and I have settled this really. You know what I'm talking about. My hits are guaranteed in the boiler room or I didn't take the shot.

And what about archery I keep alluding too. If you think the .223 is unethical; are you similarly opposed to all bow hunting of deer? Or do you argue that the arrow is a more reliable killer? The risk of a bad hit is astronomically greater which will lead to a lost deer and you know that happens a lot.

As I said earlier, I am not opposed to the way you are hunting deer with your 223. You are obviously obtaining clean kills. I said that already. You combine shot placement, calm deer, and heavy for caliber bullets. You are, whether you want to admit it or not, taking a chance with the target bullets. You are assuming they will track true after striking the deer. I am, as I said earlier, saying the 223 with target bullets is not a good combination.

Open tip match bullets are longitudinally poorly stable. Sometimes the fly apart. Sometimes they don't open up and go straight through. Sometimes they yaw then break up. Sometimes they strike bone and disintegrate. Predicting that is impossible.

Now, take a 150gr partition from a 308. I can tell you with a more than acceptable margin of error the bullet will preform as expected on game.

That is the point I keep trying to make. I do not see why that is such a difficult concept. People text and drive all the time and get away with it. Does that make it a good practice? You can ask "how many times have you done it?" and it still won't make it a good practice.

Good hunting bullets will typically penetrate through, even when striking moderate bone. They are typically soft point, though the polymer tip bullets work very well. They typically are bonded and/or have progressive jacket thickness to help with retained weight (and thus more predictable terminal performance/path). They are designed to expand.

Fact of the matter, whether you care or not, you are shooting living animals with bullets that are not designed to expand. They are designed to be accurate. Why not match the bullet/round to the game? Why not use a "full size" deer cartridge?

As for bowhunting. I've logged piles of hours in a deer stand with my Diamond. I've killed 2 deer that way. And passed on dozens because I couldn't be sure. We are on the same page.

So, brother, we really are on the same page. FWIW, I have several boxes of the hog load you mentioned. Those are interesting. Though, I will note, they are hunting bullets, not match bullets.

[JHC]

I know Bill, I'm digging the kittens out of the discussion and I appreciate your participation. It's great multi-tasking watching the Braves.

I don't have a reason to use OTMs with my various new purpose built options, but I want to put something out for Doc's opinion if he hazards to offer one. The mil chose the 77 gr SMK in the Mk262 for accuracy and improved wounding. Maybe just most of the time. Lots of reports from live target use have suggested it was pretty decent. Some knowledgeable folk have offered that it's terminal effects took some steam out of the 6.8. True or myth?

But - to the extent the OTM is inconsistent in gel tests - I betcha its a lot less inconsistent in game because the game isn't a homogenous medium. It clips a rib or shoulder and that thing is fragmenting. ???

The larger point is The .223 has gone mainstream for deer. That's why so many companies are producing hunting bullets for it. http://americanhunter.org/blogs/223-for-deer-hunting/ It's not a weird niche anymore.

The three deer I've dissected from similar close range .308 kills had damage off the damn chart. Probably hundreds of bone fragments large to snowflake size spread out all over the place. Struck me as overkill frankly. I thought the 30-30 wound channels pretty optimal. Nice 1.5" or so hole bored through and through. No tooth pick bone frags all over the place. That's pretty much what the Federal 55 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw did through a large buck's lungs. Except it broke TWO ribs at the entrance wound. That's kinda crazy.

Lemee see, one 30-30 kill was straight on into the throat back into the chest - he fell in his rear hoove tracks. One shot through the lungs ran about 40 yards and fell. One double lung'd dropped in her tracks. And her mother, who took a couple bounds then paused to look back to see if her yearly was following got a 150 grain Core Lokt through both shoulders. She took off. I found her at least 75 yards away. How she got so far with both shoulders broken and a good bit of lung damage I don't know. But she had a dose of adrenalin.

[Haraise]

AT BEST!!! I'm sure it must be actually worse then. Probably criminal. Except for state law.

I don't mean to ascribe antiquated beliefs. Your analogy was so "zany" considering the huge amount of deer hunting experience with .223s (including a LOT of use of those fragmenting target bullets) that I lost myself in the post. I take it back.

No, at best modifies what came before, not after.

Erratic at best.

In order to use the statement on unethical, there'd need to be something like 'is, at best, unethical. '

[JHC]

No, at best modifies what came before, not after.

Erratic at best.

In order to use the statement on unethical, there'd need to be something like 'is, at best, unethical. '

Of course. I knew that. Testing.

[littlejerry]

For the record, I have had excellent results with Federal Fusion/Speer Gold Dot 64 grain bonded SPs on GA deer. My shots have been unobstructed and under 100 yards. Excellent penetration, no unnecessary damage, and no lost deer.

As long as quality soft points are available in .223 I'll continue to use it.

[DocGKR]

JHC--the linked article is very good and well worth the read; I agree with the recommendations of using .223 on med game like deer: Keep shots under 150 yds, ensure careful shot placement like when bow hunting, use quality robust expanding barrier blind bullets with good weight retention--55 or 62 TBBC, 64 gr Nosler Bonded, 62 or 70 gr TSX, 64 gr Gold Dot/62 gr Fusion, 62 gr Remington CLUB, 60 gr Nosler Partition are all great choices.

I do NOT like fragmenting bullets for hunting deer or other animals harvested to eat--picking metal out of meat is no fun and is NOT good for teeth; save the fragmenting loads for varmints. I personally would not willingly choose to hunt with FMJ or OTM if other better alternatives are available, as noted above.

77 gr Mk262 was developed for the Mk12 from match loads used by the service shooting teams. Mk262 was available before 6.8 mm was developed and had nothing to do with 6.8 mm antipathy. Keep in mind that when Mk262 was developed, some lots of M855 were shooting 5-6 MOA; it is a whole lot easier to hit a target with a 1 MOA load vs. a 5-6 MOA one when shooting at longer ranges. Mk262 in no way compares with 6.8 mm terminal performance, especially when barriers are involved:



As I noted above, I much prefer 6.8 mm when hunting using an AR15.

[JHC]

Thanks Doc! This morning I zeroed a TA33 on my N4 Recce hunting rig with Remington Hog Hammer which is a 62 grain TSX. Ready to go!

Littlejerry just reminded me I've got some of that Fusion load around here also. Lots of good choices. I don't think I will get to this GMX load this season after all.

[Sparks2112]

Bill, I'm going to withhold judgement on whether or not I'll be taking my sbr deer hunting this year until I see what those GDSP's do to some of your yotes. Think we can scare any up with Sean?