Page 3 of 18 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 173

Thread: Dry Practice Misconceptions - Updated 01-22-19

  1. #21
    Site Supporter Slavex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Canada
    I'm certainly the least qualified to disagree on this, but I'm going to on a few points.
    The trigger reset, I find it immensely helpful for new shooters who typically throw their finger off the trigger as soon as the sear breaks. This is true for rifle and pistol. And I'll admit I still default to it if I suddenly find myself taking extra shots at distant steel. Once they learn how to do that, we move onto reset under recoil. I learned that from Ernest, so I can't say it's just something I made up. It is slower to do the reset version of course. But I feel it allows for a better learning curve with people.
    I also don't think people who index draw and are prepping the trigger on the way up are breaking any cardinal rules. They are on target, purposely engaging it, which means to me, they should be on the trigger. This is competitive shooting I'm talking about obviously in this case
    ...and to think today you just have fangs

    Rob Engh
    BC, Canada

  2. #22
    We are diminished
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Quote Originally Posted by Slavex View Post
    I also don't think people who index draw and are prepping the trigger on the way up are breaking any cardinal rules. They are on target, purposely engaging it, which means to me, they should be on the trigger. This is competitive shooting I'm talking about obviously in this case
    Can you positively guarantee every time that your finger isn't on the trigger when the gun is pointed below, above, or next to the target during the drawstroke? What if there is a no-shoot superimposed over the bottom half of the shoot target?

    And that's just being picayune about the rule in a competition setting. Now think about the habit you are building and what it means if you need to draw the gun in a less recreational setting.

  3. #23
    Member Sparks2112's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    Now think about the habit you are building and what it means if you need to draw the gun in a less recreational setting.
    I've been told shooting yourself at the start of a gunfight is counter productive?
    J.M. Johnston
    Host of Ballistic Radio - Sundays at 7:00 PM EST on Cincinnati's 55KRC THE Talk Station, available on iHeartRadio

  4. #24
    Site Supporter Slavex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Todd, I understand where you are coming from regarding trigger finger placement, and on this I disagree. I don't buy into the training scar idea on it. Maybe because I train on more than just draw and shoot. The competitive arena is distinctly different than the real life arena, so long as people train to recognize that, I don't think there will be a problem.
    ...and to think today you just have fangs

    Rob Engh
    BC, Canada

  5. #25
    Member Al T.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Columbia SC
    Tagged. This is pure gold.

  6. #26
    We are diminished
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Quote Originally Posted by Slavex View Post
    Todd, I understand where you are coming from regarding trigger finger placement, and on this I disagree. I don't buy into the training scar idea on it. Maybe because I train on more than just draw and shoot.
    I'm not sure what that means, "because I train on more than just draw and shoot." You might also practice ballet dancing and your multiplication tables but how is that relevant to the discussion? We're talking about draw and shoot so it's that practice that's relevant.

    If your drawstroke involves you putting your finger on the trigger when you are not positive that the gun is pointed at something you're willing to shoot, you've violated a cardinal safety rule. Period. Perhaps you're not worried about violating the rule but that doesn't change the fact that you're violating it.

    The competitive arena is distinctly different than the real life arena, so long as people train to recognize that, I don't think there will be a problem.
    And when we're talking about complex decision making, I agree. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about building up a skill -- drawing on a target -- to the point where it becomes almost reflexive. And we're talking about doing it in a way that violates safety fundamentals because, when playing games, the whole downrange area is an acceptable target. The idea that under stress you will consciously think through your draw technique and modify it to be completely different than your practiced method... that goes against just about everything we know about human stress response.

    It's like the guy who insists that practicing with his race holster 99% of the time is fine because the skill will transfer to his concealed CCW holster. You know how many of those guys I see get completely fumbled up in their concealment garment? Or how many of them fumble the draw because they can't get a grip on a concealed gun held tight against their body as fast as they can grab one hanging inches off their hip? It's not about decision making or awareness or mindset. It's about executing an ingrained program. If you reversed the gas pedal and brake on my car, I could drive it just fine slowly around the parking lot. I might even be able to drive it safely under normal road conditions. But when a little kid suddenly runs out in front of my car, which pedal am I going to stomp on reflexively?

    Some people will choose to focus their time and effort into techniques which give them an edge in competition (or so they perceive) but that are impractical or even unsafe under other circumstances. That's a judgment call and one that needs to be made based on the shooter's priorities. But it's a grievous error to make that compromise and then try to convince yourself -- and others! -- that there is no compromise.

  7. #27
    Jay,

    That is so well expressed.

    May I have permission---giving full credit to you!---to use your post in my training circle?

    Thanks.

    Bill

  8. #28

  9. #29
    Site Supporter Slavex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Canada
    To clarify how I do it, in practice first. I still do a combo of Ernest's press out and an index draw, once I can see the gun in my peripheral vision I start prepping the trigger until I hit extension. In a match on a clear target at 10yds or under I'm on the trigger as soon as the gun is level out of the holster. If that qualifies to you as breaking the rule, then I am, but for me it doesn't. If it's a partial, or has a no shoot around it, I wait until I see the sights. In a force on force scenario I wait until I'm on target pressing the gun out. I change what I'm doing based on target presented. Which is what my "I train more than just draw and shoot" comment was supposed to mean. And I would expect, based on my exposure to other shooters that they do similar.
    ...and to think today you just have fangs

    Rob Engh
    BC, Canada

  10. #30
    Member NETim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Nebraska
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Cunningham View Post
    I have come to a reckoning when it comes to dry practice. I now dry practice a very certain way and I teach my students to practice this way. I've found it helpful and my students have found it helpful.

    All trainers have opinions and if you don't agree with mine, I'm quite fine with that. I'm not the best shooter in the world, but I'm not bad. I'm also pretty good at helping others to become better shooters. If you require either GM ranking or 100 confirmed kills as credentials before you listen to what I have to say, then move along because I possess neither.


    If you are staging the trigger during dry practice, you're screwing yourself. An exaggeratedly slow trigger press almost never increases your chance of getting a hit. In fact, what it does is significantly contributes to the anticipation that leads to jerking the trigger. You all know what that looks like; for right-handed shooters it tends to manifest itself as hits low left. You are better off pressing the trigger straight through decisively, regardless of trigger characteristics. This short-circuits mental agony which helps mitigate jerking the trigger due to anticipation.

    If you aren't achieving a full firing grip during dry practice, you're screwing yourself. You know the gun isn't going to recoil, so you hold the gun like a dead fish. However, your hands interact with each other and with the gun differently when your full firing grip is achieved. It's tempting to shortcut your support hand grip during dry practice because with striker-fired guns you continuously remove it to reset the trigger via the slide. Don't do it. Pivot those knuckles like a hinge and drive the base of the palm of your support hand into the grip to provide tight, full 360 degree coverage.

    If you persist in using "just the tip" of your trigger finger because you were trained that way, you're screwing yourself. If you're reading this you've likely taken formal training and you've likely been told to use just the tip of your finger on the trigger. I'm telling you to use how much ever finger you need to minimize movement of the gun. This requires experimentation. You may only need just the tip of your finger. You may need to jam your whole finger in up to the second knuckle. You need to figure it out, and now is the time. You'll know when it's right, because the sights won't move.

    If you are worried about trying to simulate "catching the link" during dry practice, you're screwing yourself. BANG-CLICK is something I wish I could purge instantly from my students, but instead I need to rely upon 3,000 to 5,000 repetitions. Such is life. If you've been trained to "catch the link" (press the trigger, hold it to the rear, gun cycles, sights back on target, let the trigger out to reset point, press the trigger again) you've been taught a technique that isn't particularly helpful. You're far better off simply relaxing your trigger finger during the recoil of the gun and being ready to fire that next shot when the sights fall back down on target. So with all that said, quit trying to simulate catching the link during dry practice. It's not doing anything useful.

    If you think lots of live fire means you can skip dry practice, you're screwing yourself. Dry practice allows you to look at things differently than live fire. If you have a mentality that you "shoot all the time" therefore you don't need to dry practice, you're depriving yourself of a very simple and effective methodology for improvement. Don't view dry practice as something to do only when you can't get to the range.


    Obviously the focus of the above is narrowed down to practicing the perfect trigger press with a normal two handed grip. SHO and WHO practice has some additional nuance. Ultimately, the goal of dry practice should be to develop a perfect trigger press and to work on techniques which don't require live rounds to go down range. Focusing on developing the perfect trigger press requires you to move the trigger to the rear while keeping three axis stability of the boreline. Through combination of strong support hand grip, an understanding of the subtle interaction of support hand and master grip, trigger finger positioning in relation to the trigger face, and authoritative but controlled trigger movement, you will be able to achieve the goal of pressing the trigger without having your sights appreciably move.


    If you hate this post and think I should die, I'm fine with that. I would suggest giving what I said a try first, though. Anyway, you didn't have to pay me for these big secrets, so what do you have to lose?

    Where have you been all my life?
    In a sort of ghastly simplicity we remove the organ and demand the function. We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful. ― C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •