Yes, of course... no disagreement with the above.Originally Posted by GJM
But remember, despite the twists and turns this thread has taken (all good!) the original premise is "dry practice misconceptions" and as a subtitle I'll say "for practical pistol shooters". I feel a huge problem occurs when practical pistol shooters don't dry practice with a full strong firing grip and a crisp trigger manipulation.
I noticed in the AAR thread I linked to that some of the pictures weren't showing! I fixed three of those!
Anyway, I wanted to comment about the original intent and scope of the topic. The following is a synopsis (or perhaps a restating) of my point, without me going back to the beginning and specifically referring to what I've already written:
When drawing on my previous 10 years of experience, overwhelmingly in the "tactical" shooting world, I've come to find three issues with Tactical Timmies (I use the term with endearment) which consistently have a detrimental effect on their shooting performance:
- Grip is not emphasized properly.
- Surprise break trigger control is taught.
- Shooters are told that dry practice is important, but not how to dry practice.
All three of the above can be woven into the overall topic of dry practice for the practical pistol shooter. I consider the defensive/tactical class taker, and both USPSA and IDPA as practical pistol shooters. Starting with #3 and working our way back, Tactical Timmies are told that dry practice is important. Besides draws, reloads and other stuff like that, trigger control is the big thing they should practice dry. They are often told to perform a "perfect press" which usually means the front sight remains perfectly still. As far as goals go, I believe this is counter-productive.
When shooters make a "perfect trigger press" (front sight perfectly still) they will compromise all kinds of things which they need for good shooting performance to achieve that one misguided goal. Continuing back through our list, they will take up the trigger in an agonizingly slow fashion... but that's okay, because it's just a slowed-down version of the surprise break methodology, right?
Surprise break trigger control methodology is a poor methodology for practical pistol shooters. Despite the claim that it eliminates anticipation, it actually does the opposite and builds anticipation. It also looks nothing like the way practical pistol shooters manipulate the trigger 98% of the time. It may be appropriate for the art of bullseye shooting, but I'll leave that up to a bullseye shooting guru.
So since the Timmies are told dry practice is important but not how to do it (except for being told "achieve a perfect trigger press") they take up super slow on their triggers to achieve the goal of a still front sight when the hammer/striker falls. Naturally, the third thing which is compromised is any type of realistic, strong grip on the pistol. When the goal is a perfectly still front sight, the shooter will compromise essential things to achieve the goal.
So... I propose some basic ideas for the practical pistol shooter to consider during their dry practice:
First, redefine your goal. Practice pure trigger control SHO and WHO. Try to achieve that still front sight (but do your best to keep the trigger in motion the whole time). With both hands on the gun in your normal grip, your goal should be to operate the trigger as crisply and aggressively as you can without too much movement of your front sight. Think of it this way: SHO/WHO are trigger control, both hands on the gun is grip check.
With both hands on the gun during dry practice, have your full firing grip established and don't compromise it. A strong grip built high on the gun is what I recommend; when you perform the above-mentioned crisp trigger press you'll be able to achieve your goal of very limited front sight movement - hence, grip check.
There are lots of great and talented shooters here with varying opinions, and they're all worthy of consideration. What I'm offering here are some basic suggestions to Tactical Timmy types (believe me, I know you all very well because that's my own background) which make more sense in supporting your practical pistol shooting goals that what you may be currently doing.
A couple years ago I took a crack at this elbows out thing and rejected it quickly. Then earlier this year a really good young shooter was my guest at the range and he suggested the same thing except this time he offered a few tips on how to set it up and it clicked.My opinion:
It behooves the practical pistol shooter to get the "ball" of their support hand as high on the gun as they can get it - the area directly between the thumb and the wrist. Once there, it behooves the shooter to "pinch" the gun high, as close to the bore axis as possible. To facilitate this, the shooter should torque inward with both hands (forearms come into play as well) to build the man/machine interface high on the pistol frame. If the hands splay apart a bit down low on the pistol grip, that's okay.
I don't recommend locking arms/elbows unless you're shooting SHO or WHO. Leaving a bend in the elbows is better for recoil control and allows for a stronger grip. Try this: Lock your elbows out and try to build a high, strong grip. Now bend your elbows and try to build a high, strong grip. Locking elbows tends to bring the bottom of the hands together on the pistol grip, which can lead to "heeling" (throwing rounds high) and to "milking" the grip (continually reestablishing) over a multi-shot string.
Vogel has figured out a lot of stuff and it's important to consider his opinion, however also keep in mind that he's a world class competitor and that his technique tends to verge on the extreme. Learn the lesson from him, don't try to imitate him.
Here a different angle of Vogel:
Attachment 4182
Note the support arm higher relative to the firing arm. It would also appear that both elbows are bent.
I don't have a very strong grip and this method of getting those elbows out a bit improved my support hand purchase a good bit and my recoil control with what grip I have. It's good.
Then a couple Sat's ago shooting with Kevin B he offered the idea of a little more forward placement of my support hand index finger out past flush with the end of the trigger guard, yet still under it. This seemed to creep the "ball" of my support hand incrementally even higher.
I agree that a high octane grip during dry fire is pretty important vs getting slack on it.
“Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais
Were there any tips that you can share regarding the elbows out grip? I never know how 'high' to bring them up, and at some point it feels really awkward.
GOALS! What is your goal? Don't get sucked into "making your thumbs point forward" or "making your elbows stick out" ---
Understand what is important to your shooting and your practice, then understand how to achieve it. Look at the following pic and my associated caption:
It's remarkable to see such uniformity in grip, especially considering no one was told to "make your grip look like this". What we did was tell shooters what was important and why, and how to achieve it. The shooter in the foreground (whilst otherwise displaying excellent overall marksmanship throughout the day) was encouraged to lift his chin up and break out of the "turtle"... this can be difficult to deprogram but we got there little by little.
Without any intention of contradicting Jay's reply (and a pretty excellent picture), I would say that when I tried it first I tried to point both elbows out - pointing on an axis fully parallel to the ground and found that a no go. This year I didn't change my strong hand elbow direction much but more so the support side elbow - but comfortably, not straining. Just "cocked" it up maybe 15 degrees from where it had been and got more solid support.
It's not easy to be sure but my sense it pretty close to the guy in Jay's pic with the brown jacket.
edit: I thought this was so cool that when I visited my son in AK in June and we got out to shoot I was all about showing him this but I saw he was already doing it. He said, "Well, yeah, that's how Frank Proctor suggested we do it when we trained with him." I had dumped memory of that completely. Perhaps because I'd thought I'd tried it and found it wanting.
Last edited by JHC; 11-02-2015 at 11:42 AM.
“Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais
I guess goal-wise what I have been trying to do recently with my grip during dry-fire:
1. Minimize or eliminate front sight movement as I go through an entire trigger press, including doing an immediate reset. Any movement tells me where my grip is changing or breaking down in the absence of having to deal with recoil
2. Maximize surface area and friction on the pistol
3. Get hands as high as possible near the bore line, up high on the beaver tail
4. Try to press in on the grip of the gun, both inwards by torquing elbows up a bit and pressing the thumb-side of the palm inwards, as well as somewhat front-to-back pressure
5. Try to add extra pressure/locking of pinky and ring finger to help improve recoil
6. Lock wrists and elbows
7. Wonder if I should try again with my support-hand index finger slightly further out on the trigger guard.
Do you think I am tracking wrong on any of the goals I've set up in my head, or am I missing anything critical? Appreciate all the feedback I can get
My opinion is that you shouldn't chase off in too many directions at the same time. Here are *very brief* thoughts on your list.
This stuff is hard to do via written word.I guess goal-wise what I have been trying to do recently with my grip during dry-fire:
1. Minimize or eliminate front sight movement as I go through an entire trigger press, including doing an immediate reset. Any movement tells me where my grip is changing or breaking down in the absence of having to deal with recoil I'd go with "minimize sight movement" I wouldn't worry about "doing an immediate reset".
2. Maximize surface area and friction on the pistol This can be counter-productive - where your hands come together on the gun needs to be strong.
3. Get hands as high as possible near the bore line, up high on the beaver tail Get the important part of your support hand as high as possible.
4. Try to press in on the grip of the gun, both inwards by torquing elbows up a bit and pressing the thumb-side of the palm inwards, as well as somewhat front-to-back pressure I wouldn't worry about front-to-back pressure.
5. Try to add extra pressure/locking of pinky and ring finger to help improve recoil I wouldn't worry about that.
6. Lock wrists and elbows I'm concerned with the "lock" terminology you're using.
7. Wonder if I should try again with my support-hand index finger slightly further out on the trigger guard. Yes, if it helps to get the important part of your support hand higher on the frame.
Do you think I am tracking wrong on any of the goals I've set up in my head, or am I missing anything critical? Appreciate all the feedback I can get
Last edited by Jay Cunningham; 11-02-2015 at 01:33 PM.
Jay, thanks for your thoughts and feedback. Can you help me process some of what you’ve said?
I'd go with "minimize sight movement" I wouldn't worry about "doing an immediate reset".
The reason I added the ‘doing a reset’ part is I used to just dry fire once, and either not follow through or would just pin the trigger. When I started releasing the trigger to reset after the shot broke, I realized that there was wobble on the front sight. I realized that something was off with my grip, which would probably cause issues in trying to get a clean return of the sights on target in recoil, hence the desire to include that specifically. I think the goal of ‘minimize sight movement’ is ultimately the goal, but are you saying to not worry about the reset in and how my gun moves during reset in dry fire, or rather that you recommend using a broader goal to strive for?
It sounds like the other key part is to just get the key index/contact points as high up on the frame of the gun as possible, which makes sense. I’ll try to break down my grip and see where or how I can improve that further.
I'm concerned with the "lock" terminology you're using.
I don’t think I’m describing this properly. I am not fully extending and locking my elbows out, but instead trying to get tendons activated. I know people recommend the 45 degree angle for the hand, but I read somewhere (Mike Seeklander maybe?) that if you follow the prior point about getting high on the gun, your hand will naturally point ~45 degrees down. Once you actually apply a firm grip, your wrist will naturally lock due to the tendons being engaged.
I noticed a few weeks ago I was trying too hard to control recoil, so I was muscling the gun back down into position, which made my shooting much worse. Instead recently I’ve been trying to engage muscles in my core, arms, and shoulder, which has the added benefit of adding tension to the tendons in the joints. I'm not trying flex or activate those muscles at 100% capacity, just enough to have a solid base and engage the tendons in my elbow. I don’t know if that clears things up with what I’m trying to accomplish, or if what I'm doing is counter-productive.
Jay,
You mentioned that he not worry about focusing on his pinkie to help in recoil control. Agreed.
Do you have any concrete thoughts on the role of that stunted digit? I tend to think it's counterproductive and causes more harm than benefit. I can't see how focusing on crushing with the pinkie could do anything but increase risk of milking the shot low.
“Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais
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