Dry Practice Misconceptions - Updated 01-22-19

[Jay Cunningham]

Vogel is so strong, it almost doesn't matter how he holds a 9mm Glock 34 -- it isn't going to move.

Rich, here is my thought on support hand influencing trigger pull. While the support hand being strong may allow you to be rougher on the trigger (meaning go faster more aggressive), you need to be able to press the trigger back without disturbing the sights. That is two hands, or right/left hand only. Until you can press the trigger straight back slow fire, followed by intermediate speed, followed finally by full speed, you are chasing things that are secondary. Until you get to 50 yards and beyond, most/many missed shots are a result of trigger control problems not sight alignment problems. A different support hand position may allow you to shoot better, but it may also be masking problems with pressing the trigger straight back, that should be fixed immediately.

I agree with much of what you say, but I'd emphasize that SHO and WHO shooting are almost essentially pure trigger control, whereas shooting with a two handed grip should take advantage of the *support!* provided.

For dry practice, I recommend "perfect trigger press" repetitions SHO and WHO for maximum bang/buck. I recommend as aggressive trigger manipulation as you possibly can with both hands on the gun.

[BehindBlueI's]

If you are worried about trying to simulate "catching the link" (riding the reset) during dry practice, you're screwing yourself. BANG-CLICK is something I wish I could purge instantly from my students, but instead I need to rely upon 3,000 to 5,000 repetitions. Such is life. If you've been trained to "catch the link" (press the trigger, hold it to the rear, gun cycles, sights back on target, let the trigger out to reset point, press the trigger again) you've been taught a technique that isn't particularly helpful. You're far better off simply relaxing your trigger finger during the recoil of the gun and being ready to fire that next shot when the sights fall back down on target. So with all that said, quit trying to simulate catching the link during dry practice. It's not doing anything useful.:

Huh. I've not been catching the reset, but once I read this I realized I was pinning the trigger most of the time when dry firing one shot. I never thought to think about it, so to speak. So today I worked on working the trigger hard and then relaxing the finger. I noticed some things that pop up in live fire that hadn't in dry fire before, so thanks for this.

Also noticed I need to work on support hand grip strength. I've taken too long off of working on grip strength and it's starting to show.

[GRV]

[snip]
Here a different angle of Vogel:


Attachment 4182


Note the support arm higher relative to the firing arm. It would also appear that both elbows are bent.

You found exactly the picture of Vogel I was going to post.

[RJ]

Try this: Lock your elbows out and try to build a high, strong grip. Now bend your elbows and try to build a high, strong grip.

Just tried this. I can feel it in my trapezius and deltoid both.

Can't wait to try this on the range; meanwhile, I'll incorporate this into my dry fire.

Thanks!

[scw2]

I saw a discussion a few pages back, but wanted some opinions. Running a CZ 75 I fire my shots SA, but recently in dry fire I've purposely followed up shots using DA, with the finger on the trigger in the same location as for SA. I figured it would help me see if there were issues with my grip, especially after the first shot (relaxing, shifting, etc). Is this beneficial, or am I better off just doing 1 SA shot at a time and resetting the hammer each time?


Rich, one thing I've realized recently is that I'm not pressing my trigger fast enough in dry fire. I've realized slow pressing allows me to be lazy with grip. What's even worse, is I suspect when I'm shooting really well live fire, it's when I'm just pressing straight back smoothly and not when I'm right at the wall and try to snatch a shot. I've recently been looking to increase my speed in dry fire while trying to keep my front sight 100% stable. I also make sure to release the trigger immediately to simulate resetting during recoil. Seeing when your front sight moves in the process is illuminating as you can quickly see what tweaks or changes to your grip are crap, and can be tossed out without even needing to waste ammo to experiment on the changes that are useless. If you have a gun that is DA, then you can maybe do additional testing and press multiple times and see how your grip holds up, depending on what the experts say in response to my question above

I'm no expert, but I think that would give you a great starting place in your dry fire to try different tweaks to your grip, see what might work, then go to the range and compare. At least that's my plan.


Edit: Reading through Jay's linked AAR makes me wish I could go back in time and attend that class. Feels like it's a really great course on fundamentals of trigger and grip, which is exactly what I'm mostly working on in dry and live fire recently!

[GJM]

With DA/SA pistols, in dry fire, some folks press the trigger once in DA, then don't let the trigger all the way out to simulate SA. The 320 and VP9 are nice, because you can keep pressing the trigger after the first press (unlike the Glock where the trigger is dead after the first press).

No disagreement with a strong two hand grip, but Rich/Jay, the point I was trying to make was reference Rich's post, where he described his group at 5 yards shrinking with a different support hand technique. As Robbie Leatham demonstrates, you can make an accurate shot with almost any grip, from two fingers to a tea cup, or even one hand. Where the strong two hand grip comes in is trying to shoot accurate shots fast. Robbie actually makes a teaching point that even with a botched grip, you can make accurate shots, but you have to shoot more slowly than with an ideal grip.

[scw2]

Thanks, I'll have to try out that tip. Part of me wants to let it fully reset, since I figure if I can get my front sight stable at a "fast" pace in harder DA mode in dry fire, it'll help a lot in live fire. I don't know if that's misguided thinking or not and if would do more harm than good.

[GJM]

Thanks, I'll have to try out that tip. Part of me wants to let it fully reset, since I figure if I can get my front sight stable at a "fast" pace in harder DA mode in dry fire, it'll help a lot in live fire. I don't know if that's misguided thinking or not and if would do more harm than good.

Early on, there is a temptation to do almost all DA practice since that is "harder," although SA is the vast majority of shots, and hard in its own way. I learned that from Taadski.

[nycnoob]

Rich, one thing I've realized recently is that I'm not pressing my trigger fast enough in dry fire.

I learned about using a metronome for trigger practice after a Bloovman/April class.

The were also a whole series of cadence shooting drills designed to help speed up the shooting of
close targets without sacrificing accuracy (aimed fire at 60 BPM (one shot per second, 1 sec split), 120 BPM
and finally 240 BPM (.25 sec split) ). Found this so helpful that I plan on incorporating cadence shooting
into my dry fire regime (Here is a free metronome which goes to 300 BPM http://a.bestmetronome.com/).

[MGW]

Okay, between this thread and the AAR referenced above some lights have started to switch on. I've really been struggling with pushing shots low and not managing the trigger very well.

Vogel's description of torquing both arms in just clicked with me. I've watched his video above multiple times but couldn't figure out what he meant by that. The reason I couldn't is because I've been locking my elbows out with out realizing it.

If I torque my arms inward as I press out its almost impossible to lock my elbows out. It also creates an incredibly tight grip on the pistol without feeling like I'm trying to crush the pistol with my hands. It really frees me up to just see the sights and work the trigger.

Some really good stuff here.