Dry Practice Misconceptions - Updated 01-22-19

[RJ]

If you aren't achieving a full firing grip during dry practice, you're screwing yourself. You know the gun isn't going to recoil, so you hold the gun like a dead fish. However, your hands interact with each other and with the gun differently when your full firing grip is achieved. It's tempting to shortcut your grip during dry practice because with striker-fired guns you continuously remove your support hand to reset the trigger via the slide. DON'T SHORTCUT YOUR GRIP. Think of your knuckles like the hinge of a nutcracker and establish a hard grip as high on the gun as you can. If your forearms are torqueing inward and your pectoral muscles come into play, you're doing it right. If your support arm is higher than your firing arm because you're getting the "ball" of your support hand up as high as you can on the gun, you're doing it right.

I really like this thread, and I keep coming back to read it from time to time.

I hope Jay does not mind me bumping it with a question, vs. a new thread, because what I'm asking is kind of related.

With regard to the above point, in particular, the bold, does this necessarily argue for a more "support arm locked" approach?

So today I was shooting with some friends that were visiting Tampa. One was a young USMC officer, so I took the opportunity to ask him to critique my stance. (I understand the USMC knows a bit about marksmanship )

After looking at me shoot low right (as a lefty), he had me try locking my support arm elbow much closer and tighter to counter my trigger hand grip tightening.

Wow! After I did this, I immediately saw my groups at 5 yards shrink by 1/2. It was...pretty amazing. It felt much more solid and stable.

So, I came home, did some research, and thought I would ask what you guys thought about this suggestion. Since this thread is so useful, I wondered if this was what Jay was getting at in the quote (and bold part) above.

Thoughts?

[Luke]

I'd like to know more about the boldest area as well. I've tried it before and didn't like it so I stopped, but I was probably doing it wrong. If I torque my arms inwards like I think it says the part of my palm closest to the ground while aiming the gun comes up and tries to 'peak' my hand away from the gun..

Or are you saying to torque down wards and not up like I was assuming? Activating your front delts?

[RJ]

I'd like to know more about the boldest area as well. I've tried it before and didn't like it so I stopped, but I was probably doing it wrong. If I torque my arms inwards like I think it says the part of my palm closest to the ground while aiming the gun comes up and tries to 'peak' my hand away from the gun..

Or are you saying to torque down wards and not up like I was assuming? Activating your front delts?

Um, my English sucks. sorry.

I meant that he suggested I bring my support hand elbow in tight, like, locked in tight, vs letting my elbow bend and kinda drop / point to the floor...hopefully makes more sense.


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[GRV]

I don't want to speak for Jay, but here's my interpretation:

What he's saying does not involve locking the elbow out as you have. In fact, getting pec activation may be harder with a locked elbow. Instead, think like Bob Vogel's grip, torquing "in"/down onto the top of the frame.

In your pic, your support arm actually looks lower than your strong arm, but it might just be the angle. It doesn't look optimal or in total matchup with any contemporary grip theory, but personally, I think this stuff is super individual and that results should speak louder than conformity, so power to you if it's working.

[HopetonBrown]

One was a young USMC officer, so I took the opportunity to ask him to critique my stance. (I understand the USMC knows a bit about marksmanship :cool

One of the great myths in the firearms world is that because someone is in the military or law enforcement it means they automatically have anything more than a rudimentary understanding of firearms accuracy or gun handling.

[RJ]

^^^ Understood. My point was he was not just some yahoo at the range, but your point is valid.

At any rate, I noticed an immediate and sudden reduction in group sizes, my groups were more centered than ever before, and my wife said I was better looking.

Ok, well maybe not all of that, but, I tell ya, my shoulders (both sides, the muscles that connect my head to my shoulders) were much tighter with my elbow locked or nearly locked. It seems logical to me that given that I've been pushing rounds low right as a lefty for two years, that 'for me' the effect of locked elbows corrected that issue.

You mentioned Bob Vogel, exactly. Here is Mr. Vogel's grip video, check out 1:54, for example:



His support arm looks pretty straight to me:



I get the biomechanics is not the same for everyone, was just wondering, 'in general' would the experts advise locking support hand elbow, or no?

[Jay Cunningham]

My opinion:

It behooves the practical pistol shooter to get the "ball" of their support hand as high on the gun as they can get it - the area directly between the thumb and the wrist. Once there, it behooves the shooter to "pinch" the gun high, as close to the bore axis as possible. To facilitate this, the shooter should torque inward with both hands (forearms come into play as well) to build the man/machine interface high on the pistol frame. If the hands splay apart a bit down low on the pistol grip, that's okay.

I don't recommend locking arms/elbows unless you're shooting SHO or WHO. Leaving a bend in the elbows is better for recoil control and allows for a stronger grip. Try this: Lock your elbows out and try to build a high, strong grip. Now bend your elbows and try to build a high, strong grip. Locking elbows tends to bring the bottom of the hands together on the pistol grip, which can lead to "heeling" (throwing rounds high) and to "milking" the grip (continually reestablishing) over a multi-shot string.

Vogel has figured out a lot of stuff and it's important to consider his opinion, however also keep in mind that he's a world class competitor and that his technique tends to verge on the extreme. Learn the lesson from him, don't try to imitate him.

Here a different angle of Vogel:





Note the support arm higher relative to the firing arm. It would also appear that both elbows are bent.

[Jay Cunningham]

Read through this AAR of last year's diagnostics workshop Protective Shooting Concepts conducted:

AAR: pistol-forum.com Diagnostics Workshop

for some clarifying commentary and pictures.

[GJM]

Vogel is so strong, it almost doesn't matter how he holds a 9mm Glock 34 -- it isn't going to move.

Rich, here is my thought on support hand influencing trigger pull. While the support hand being strong may allow you to be rougher on the trigger (meaning go faster more aggressive), you need to be able to press the trigger back without disturbing the sights. That is two hands, or right/left hand only. Until you can press the trigger straight back slow fire, followed by intermediate speed, followed finally by full speed, you are chasing things that are secondary. Until you get to 50 yards and beyond, most/many missed shots are a result of trigger control problems not sight alignment problems. A different support hand position may allow you to shoot better, but it may also be masking problems with pressing the trigger straight back, that should be fixed immediately.

[Kevin B.]

Until you can press the trigger straight back slow fire, followed by intermediate speed, followed finally by full speed, you are chasing things that are secondary.

Completely agree.