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Thread: Prerequisites

  1. #21
    We are diminished
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    So not to sound like I'm plugging Jay's idea, but I agree completely about taking refresher classes. I took at least one "basic" class every year for the first ten or so years of my shooting career and took one again just last year.

    If you think you're too good to practice fundamentals and have someone audit your performance, you probably aren't.

  2. #22
    Site Supporter JFK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    So not to sound like I'm plugging Jay's idea, but I agree completely about taking refresher classes. I took at least one "basic" class every year for the first ten or so years of my shooting career and took one again just last year.

    If you think you're too good to practice fundamentals and have someone audit your performance, you probably aren't.
    I agree with this.

    It is amazing what tid bits of information you can come up with if you are taught a subject you think you are well versed in. (and probably are well versed in for most) I had to take my CCW renewal last month. I took it with an instructor that is a friend and I respect. I thought that it was going to be 4 hours wasted but sure enough I learned something. (re learned really)

    It is also interesting how you can have small rays of light that spark the bulb in your head. From the same class I took away a piece of knowledge that I "knew" but it was presented in a way that was eye opening.

  3. #23
    Am I alone in my thinking that many of the classes billed as "advanced" are actually pretty basic skills when you the course description is dissected.

  4. #24
    We are diminished
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlw View Post
    Am I alone in my thinking that many of the classes billed as "advanced" are actually pretty basic skills when you the course description is dissected.
    That drags you down into the pit of ubiquitous internet discussions, in this case "What is Advanced?"

  5. #25
    Site Supporter JFK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    "What is Advanced?"
    Anything that has the word "Tactical" or "High Speed" in the title.

  6. #26
    Site Supporter Jay Cunningham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlw View Post
    Am I alone in my thinking that many of the classes billed as "advanced" are actually pretty basic skills when you the course description is dissected.
    It's complicated. *snicker*

    If you can't yet perform the overwhelming majority of shooting stuff on auto-pilot, then trying to make some decisions is going to fry you. However if the shooting part is the simple part, it frees your brain up to do other stuff.

    If you can manipulate your gun without slipping your finger onto the trigger and without pointing it at stuff that doesn't need shot, you're pretty far along the way. If you can hit tiny little targets on demand and bigger targets fairly rapidly, you're doing great. If you can reload, manage ammo, and clear malfunctions (without pointing your gun at something that doesn't need shot and with your finger off the trigger) then dude, you are ready for the !advanced! stuff.

    Which mainly just means effectively utilizing cover and learning how to try and avoid fights.

  7. #27
    Site Supporter ST911's Avatar
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    I sincerely appreciate clear course descriptions, objectives, and prerequisites. They are helpful in focusing my resources properly. I've been frustrated in classes that were bogged down by folks choosing poorly, working at ego-level, or trying to collect a certificate.

    For a pre-req, I'm fond of a quantified performance standard and I wouldn't mind being tested on it upon arrival. Otherwise, it's entirely reliant on people being honest with themselves, something many aren't good at. Heck, most folks don't even own a timer.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Cunningham View Post
    The last thing an instructor wants to do is refund someone's money within the first 10 minutes of shooting stating "you don't belong here".
    At least you're assuming a refund will be offered.

    Just to start - No, I can't prove any of this, it's all my recollection and, try as I might, I can't find this organization on the web any more. Because I told this story on another forum a while back, I was asked for proof and was unable to find any. Maybe they no longer exist. So consider this tale apocryphal until corroboration is obtained...which will likely be never.

    The story - Quite some time ago, perhaps a decade or so, I was looking for a basic rifle class. I found one that was open to the general public (theoretically) and held somewhere in the Rockies, iirc Colorado. The prerequisites weren't performance-based as to shooting. In fact, at first I didn't see any. I did, however, see a huge list of required equipment, including a sizable quantity of ammunition, that each shooter was supposed to have in a backpack as soon as they showed up.

    The class seemed very expensive to me at the time. It was several days and cost, again according to my often-faulty memory, ~$1400. They required payment by check in full and far enough in advance for the check to clear. Since their list of skills they would impart (being more mature now, I recognize guaranteeing someone that "After this class, you will be able to do X, Y, Z" is a red flag) matched what I wanted to achieve, I was about to sign up.

    Then I did what I always do and read every single word of all the fine print on all the pages. It turns out they did have a prerequisite. First thing, first day, you were required to load up your rifle, pack, and the required list of equipment and run a mile on a mountain trail. Anyone who failed to meet the par time would be dismissed and immediately escorted off the premises with NO refund, period, no discussion.

    I didn't sign up. My impression was that par time would have required both a 95th-percentile level of overall fitness as well as being accustomed to the thinner air. It was a complete non-starter for me.

    Anybody ever heard of any school that worked this way? This was the only one I've ever run across and that fact doesn't surprise me.

  9. #29
    Site Supporter Jay Cunningham's Avatar
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    Wow.

    Anyway, I think there are times when it's appropriate for an instructor to kick an individual out with no refund.

    I have yet to do it, though.

  10. #30
    We are diminished
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Cunningham View Post
    Anyway, I think there are times when it's appropriate for an instructor to kick an individual out with no refund.
    Absolutely. I think being involved in USPSA & IDPA matches for so long made this easier for me, since a DQ even at a major match involves no refund. If someone disregards instructions regarding safe handling of a firearm and needs to be removed from class, that's 100% on him.

    The other issue I've heard of but thankfully never experienced is the "troll student," someone who signs up for a class with the express intent of being disruptive, arguing with the instructor, etc. While I'd first attempt to get the guy to play nice, someone who refuses to follow instructions is also getting the boot.

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