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Thread: So you're an instructor, hm?

  1. #11
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvershadow View Post
    Advocates whipping a concealed fire arm out and placing it on the table at a restaurant if you decide you want to drink alcohol.
    3/15/2016

  2. #12
    We are diminished
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    Quote Originally Posted by pax View Post
    JOne thing here (and hey, why not gore a sacred cow or two while I'm at it?) is that too many instructors get very territorial over their students.
    Also a huge problem at the "national" level. I've had a couple of students who've essentially been ostracized from school-XYZ because they dared step outside the approved curriculum to take a class with someone else. What's worse, as you said, is that "school-XYZ" rarely cares about what techniques or tactics the students lean... it's just concerned about getting every training dollar the students have to spend.

    It all boils down to the instructor, appropriately enough for this thread. Some instructors see students as bags full of money and the goal is to reach in and rip out as many hundred dollar bills as possible. Other instructors see students as a responsibility. It's not that hard to tell the difference if you put a modicum of thought into it.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    Also a huge problem at the "national" level. I've had a couple of students who've essentially been ostracized from school-XYZ because they dared step outside the approved curriculum to take a class with someone else.
    This line of thinking on the part of both students and teachers never fails to amaze me. I've never had a class from anyone where I didn't learn something; conversely, I've never had a class where I didn't, at some point, think "this [statement/opinion/tactic/philosophy] doesn't make sense." Hero worship has an inverse relationship to critical thinking.

    The biggest problem I see with the civilian training community, especially the CCW community, is that so many of its doctrines tend to come from one of two places: (1) lessons learned from dissimilar circumstances, whether military combat, uniformed LEO experience, or competition, or (2) someone sittin' round an' thinkin' real hard. Doctrines and experiences from these sources may be useful to the average CCW'er, but also have the potential to be less than useful or even harmful.

    An example: advice such as "carry nothing smaller than a 9mm" or "dress around the gun," or "you can AIWB a full size service pistol, I do it all the time, it's easy" is great if your daily uniform allows untucked shirts, oversized clothes and limited interaction with professional colleagues and clients.* In an office environment that advice is less useful. Most instructors do not live and work in a professional environment, so their teachings are not geared towards practical solutions for people who do. In those cases, giving the above mentioned advice is not helpful and can be harmful if people, instead of coming up with a decent compromise solution, abandon the effort because what they have "isn't good enough." Headhunter's thoughts on these topics, coming from his background of living and working in a buttoned-up environment, are more helpful even if they result in the student carrying a nonoptimal piece of equipment.

    *ETA: this is not directed at anyone. I hear this all the time from many different sources.
    Last edited by TR675; 04-05-2013 at 10:14 AM.

  4. #14
    Site Supporter Jay Cunningham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriumphRat675 View Post
    Hero worship has an inverse relationship to critical thinking.
    This is huge.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Cunningham View Post
    The corollary is that you can't teach someone how to fight with a gun in a two day class. And to attempt to sell it otherwise would be a hoax.

    You can be straight with your students and tell them that you're working on their shooting fundamentals within the greater context of self-defense.
    Agreed. Within the time frames and the strictures of the NRA Basic Handgun class I can't teach anyone to really learn much about using a gun. I can teach them basic concepts and drill safety issues into them, bu that is about it. That is why when I teach the basic class I give them the short speech about "this class will not teach you to fight with a gun or shoot it very well. That is a different course."
    "PLAN FOR YOUR TRAINING TO BE A REFLECTION OF REAL LIFE INSTEAD OF HOPING THAT REAL LIFE WILL BE A REFLECTION OF YOUR TRAINING!"

  6. #16
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    from Triumph:
    An example: advice such as "carry nothing smaller than a 9mm" or "dress around the gun," or "you can AIWB a full size service pistol, I do it all the time, it's easy" is great if your daily uniform allows untucked shirts, oversized clothes and limited interaction with professional colleagues and clients.* In an office environment that advice is less useful. Most instructors do not live and work in a professional environment, so their teachings are not geared towards practical solutions for people who do. In those cases, giving the above mentioned advice is not helpful and can be harmful if people, instead of coming up with a decent compromise solution, abandon the effort because what they have "isn't good enough." Headhunter's thoughts on these topics, coming from his background of living and working in a buttoned-up environment, are more helpful even if they result in the student carrying a nonoptimal piece of equipment.
    Worth posting twice!
    "PLAN FOR YOUR TRAINING TO BE A REFLECTION OF REAL LIFE INSTEAD OF HOPING THAT REAL LIFE WILL BE A REFLECTION OF YOUR TRAINING!"

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG
    Also a huge problem at the "national" level. I've had a couple of students who've essentially been ostracized from school-XYZ because they dared step outside the approved curriculum to take a class with someone else. What's worse, as you said, is that "school-XYZ" rarely cares about what techniques or tactics the students lean... it's just concerned about getting every training dollar the students have to spend.
    Yup. Honestly, until I started traveling more I hadn't realized how much of a problem that is, since I came up through FAS -- and one of the big hallmarks at FAS is having guest instructors through on a regular basis. Marty actively encourages his people to get outside training, learn as much as you can from as many places as you can. That's a valuable thing for a student and even more so for someone who may become an instructor later on. Some schools give you the idea that every technique they teach was invented there, springing full grown from the instructor's head.

    It all boils down to the instructor, appropriately enough for this thread. Some instructors see students as bags full of money and the goal is to reach in and rip out as many hundred dollar bills as possible. Other instructors see students as a responsibility. It's not that hard to tell the difference if you put a modicum of thought into it.
    Well, yes. I like to listen to what the instructor says about other people, and especially what he doesn't say. If he never has a good word for anyone outside his school/franchise/religion, that says something. If he never says a word about the people he learned from, that says something. If he brags about his students who have become instructors, but never names any by name or encourages others to train with them, that says something. The guy who thinks of himself as the source of all wisdom generally isn't.

    Save me from becoming That Guy! Whether it flows from fear or from arrogance (or both), the result is just as ugly. The world is full of good people teaching good stuff. If we do our jobs right, we can be brave and encourage our students to explore, because we'll be secure in knowing they'll understand our value even after they look around. They'll still come back to us for more as long as we're doing the job right. It's only if we're not doing the work ourselves that we have to fear our students finding out about other instructors or other schools.

    pax,

    Kathy
    Kathy Jackson

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Triumph
    An example: advice such as "carry nothing smaller than a 9mm" or "dress around the gun," or "you can AIWB a full size service pistol, I do it all the time, it's easy" is great if your daily uniform allows untucked shirts, oversized clothes and limited interaction with professional colleagues and clients.* In an office environment that advice is less useful. Most instructors do not live and work in a professional environment, so their teachings are not geared towards practical solutions for people who do. In those cases, giving the above mentioned advice is not helpful and can be harmful if people, instead of coming up with a decent compromise solution, abandon the effort because what they have "isn't good enough." Headhunter's thoughts on these topics, coming from his background of living and working in a buttoned-up environment, are more helpful even if they result in the student carrying a nonoptimal piece of equipment.
    Amen and amen.

    For me, helping women find ways to carry under women's clothing in ordinary environments has been a huge challenge and blessing. I've come to realize that a lot of what our community sees as "women are reluctant to" actually stems from a huge lack of information we're not giving these folks when they need it. They need to know it's possible, they need to see it modeled, and they need to not be belittled or dismissed with their very legitimate lifestyle needs.

    Kathy
    Kathy Jackson

  9. #19
    Site Supporter DocGKR's Avatar
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    "An example: advice such as "carry nothing smaller than a 9mm" or "dress around the gun," or "you can AIWB a full size service pistol, I do it all the time, it's easy" is great if your daily uniform allows untucked shirts, oversized clothes and limited interaction with professional colleagues and clients.* In an office environment that advice is less useful. Most instructors do not live and work in a professional environment, so their teachings are not geared towards practical solutions for people who do. In those cases, giving the above mentioned advice is not helpful and can be harmful if people, instead of coming up with a decent compromise solution, abandon the effort because what they have "isn't good enough." "
    I work in a professional environment on a daily basis with significant interactions with numerous other people; I carry a 9 mm and with few exceptions cannot recommend any caliber below a .38 sp for defensive carry......

  10. #20
    I wrote this piece a while back:

    On Trainers and Training

    ---

    This past Saturday, we had a lady in a citizens firearm safety class whose son had bought her a Taurus j frame equivalent .38 Special. The trigger was so bad on it (think 16lbs with stacking) that an experienced shooter would have had trouble getting hits with it. I let her shoot my 3" model 36-1, and it was still hard for her to shoot, and the recoil was too much for her. I then had her shoot a S&W 422 pistol that I had with me, and she did quite well the rest of the day.

    The point of the above is that a .22lr that a person can actually shoot is much better that a .38 with a trigger they can't even pull.

    I would think "most" of use would teach Isosceles; however, in the same class we had a lady who has arthritis in a shoulder, and Weaver was more comfortable for her; so, we worked with her using the Weaver.

    Sometimes you have to adapt to what the student can do even when it isn't the "best" tactic.

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