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Thread: Magazine capacity, munitions, and NYPD

  1. #1
    Site Supporter DocGKR's Avatar
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    Magazine capacity, munitions, and NYPD

    The most recently released NYPD SOP-9 "Annual Firearms Discharge Report" data from 2011 document that 7 rounds or less were fired in 65% of NYPD OIS incidents, while in 35% of cases officers needed to fire more than 7 shots to stop the threat. Interestingly in 29% of the incidents, more than 10 shots were required to end the violent encounter.

    For 2010, in 67% of the NYPD OIS incidents 7 rounds or less were fired; however in 33% of the incidents more than 7 shots were required to subdue the threat. In 21% of lethal force encounters more than 10 shots were required.

    So if NYPD officers need more than 7 shots to stop violent attackers greater than 1/3 of the time, why would innocent civilians who likely have no body armor, no radio, no partner, no cover units, no less lethal options, no duty belt with extra magazines, yet who are being confronted by the same violent felons as the police need less ammunition than the NYPD officers?

    By arbitrarily restricting magazine capacity for civilians to 7 or 10 rounds, the most current NYPD SOP-9 data strongly suggests that in 1/4 to 1/3 of incidents civilians will likely run out of ammunition before the violent attacker has been stopped...

    When law enforcement agencies select munitions intended for Lethal Force Use, the primary requirement is to choose munitions that can rapidly and reliably incapacitate and stop hostile individuals who pose an immediate potentially life threatening danger to public safety and prevent them from continuing their violent actions. In addition, the munitions are carefully selected to try and minimize danger to innocent bystanders, as well as officers.

    If a member of the public is sadly forced to use lethal force to defend themselves, their family, or other innocent citizens, the requirements for lethal force munitions are EXACTLY the same as needed by the Police in such a horrible eventuality--to quickly stop the violent criminal without endangering other innocent people. In fact, it would likely be prudent and wise for a legally armed citizen to seek out the same tested and proven munitions that are used by police in order to have the greatest chance of safely and successfully surviving a lethal force encounter.

    As the progenitor of modern law enforcement, Sir Robert Peel, cogently noted:

    "The police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.”

    In short, civilian citizens should use the same munitions chosen by police in their community, as the lethal force requirements are identical and the anatomy, physiology, and incapacitation potential of a violent felon does not suddenly change whether confronted by law enforcement officers or private citizens.
    Last edited by DocGKR; 03-24-2013 at 04:53 PM.

  2. #2
    We are diminished
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    Well said!

  3. #3
    THE THIRST MUTILATOR Nephrology's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    Well said!
    Now, if only our elected officials spoke "logic"...

    I have recently been donating generously to the Second Amendment Foundation in the hopes that they might help translate for those blue staters who no hablan.

  4. #4
    Site Supporter MDS's Avatar
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    Doc, do you mind if I send your post to my elected officials? With attribution of course.
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  5. #5
    Site Supporter DocGKR's Avatar
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    The data is public info and can be distributed widely: http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloa...eport_2011.pdf

  6. #6
    Member Corlissimo's Avatar
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    I think it would be extremely interesting to see, if it were possible, the "hit/miss" ratio for the OIS events then, compare that to the same data (again, if it were possible) for civilian defensive shooting incidents.




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  7. #7
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    fantastic write-up!!!

  8. #8
    Member MikeO's Avatar
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    Makes sense.

    Even when I look at every single civilian use of a firearm in self defense in this city/county (pop 700,000) since 1989 and see none where more than 7 rounds were fired. Inside/outside the home, w pistols, rifles, shotguns, all less than 7 rounds.

    The cops and crooks do it often, the civilians not.

    The latest case was last week. Don't know how many rounds were fired by the CHL holder, but if it was more than 7, would be the first.
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  9. #9
    Site Supporter hufnagel's Avatar
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    I'd like to see # shots fired with resulting outcome on the perp (death, flight w/ subsequent death, flight w/injury, flight w/o significant/no injury (no hospital report, etc.))

    MikeO... do you see any statistical support for the possiblity that civilians are more accurate and as such not requiring more shots on target?
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  10. #10
    Member rsa-otc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeO View Post
    Makes sense.

    Even when I look at every single civilian use of a firearm in self defense in this city/county (pop 700,000) since 1989 and see none where more than 7 rounds were fired. Inside/outside the home, w pistols, rifles, shotguns, all less than 7 rounds.

    The cops and crooks do it often, the civilians not.

    The latest case was last week. Don't know how many rounds were fired by the CHL holder, but if it was more than 7, would be the first.
    Careful who you quote that stat to, it could be used against us in the "Civilians don't need more than 10 of rounds" argument.
    Scott
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