Point Shooting????

[irishshooter]

thought this topic would be a thought provoking one with some great insight to be had. I think point shooting is a great tool to have and know how and when to use it although i have met many others that area adamently against it. i have taken Bob Tauberts REflexive shooting courses and found them to be quite eye opening and challenging, but provide for a useful set of skills for certain situations. i dont think point shooting should be the only way you train, but again believe its a useful tool. any thoughts?????

By the way Bob Tauberts credentials include but are not limited to serving 2 tours as a Marine in Vietnam and being a widely respected FBI Special Agent for over twenty-four years. While in the FBI he was heavily involved in Special Operations and was one of the founders and trainers of the FBI’s Elite Hostage Rescue Team (HRT). Bob served as the FBI SOG liaison for the USMC and US Navy special operations entities. Bob is responsible for the birth of the widely known SEAL Team 6. He has been involved in numerous gun fights and survived.

[virginiatactical]

Point shooting has its place. You can look at my staff page in my website to see what my training / combat background in. It is no were near as extensive as Mr. Tauberts, but I do have some experience.

At HRP we taught to point shoot from 7 yards and in order to hit an "open" threat. That means a threat that is not behind cover, or blocked by someone (like a 3rd Grader). We built a very strong foundation that was ingrained with out shooters since TD1 of our course working over 17 thousand rounds into a group of 12 shooters over the course of 4 days. The last day was sims day. On TD4 they are tested by performing a shot on a 10 inch chest plate from 7 yards. The shooter is shooting from concealed and is operating an M9 (military, but the FED LEO or SF guys had glocks). The shooter had to deliver a successfull hit on target in 1.75 seconds. The decocker is also down on the M9. Almost all our students did this quite successfully, but we did rarely have students who could not be able to do it. (this was just part of our qual)

I strongly believe in "point shooting" for threats that are 5 yards and in, and are also unobstructed. I have only fired my pistol once in an engagement, but I was 15 yards away from the guy so of course I used my sights. Even though at HRP we taught 7 yards and In, we did have a ton of misses. I myself always pick up my sights at 7 yards, but when I feel like I am closer then that on a threat or target I rely on my presentation and press out in order to ventilate my target. (again I have never engaged anyone with my handgun closer then 15 yards)

I do not think one should point shoot at a limited target (depends on the limit). Point shooting worked well at HRP, and it works well for me now. I also currently teach 2 classes a month to a DOD client. Most 3 yards and in shots we do on the range is relying on our presentation to deliver those accurate shots. My students have to deliver 2 shots in 2 seconds from 3 yards at an unobstructed target, from the holster. The "chest" area is the full value zone of the qual course we have to qualify our guys on. My students do well, and rarely have issues hitting at that speed using our point shooting method.

[LittleLebowski]

Post an AAR on the Tauberts class you took. It will add more than posting his biography.

[irishshooter]

Post an AAR on the Tauberts class you took. It will add more than posting his biography.

from my AAR from my gun club website from a few years ago

Reflexive Shooting I

It is a 2 day 16 hour course at Sig Academy in Epping NH. requires intermediate skills for entry however it was obvious that intermediate skills were probably too lenient of a requirement and some individuals were either only allowed dry fire during drills or removed from the class entirely because of safety infractions and not being able to perform some of the drills to the instructors satisfaction. I would strongly suggest being an upper end intermediate with a lot of confidence or atleast advanced level pistol operator to get the most out of this course.

The course is based on Bob Tauberts personal survival in gun fights and the FBI statistics regarding shooting distances, speed and what wins a gun fight. Combat accuracy not bullseye accuracy is taught, however accuracy in general is mandatory. The big kicker to the course is based on Bobs research, that in a gun fight a lot of shooters report never seeing or looking at their sights therefore during the entire course your sights are taped off with electrical tape and rendered useless. This is not a course for NRA bullseye shooters for you will get no benefit from it.

Some of the COF during this course; multiple strings of each drill (keep in mind sights are taped off or removed the 2 days)

-Timed event. draw, fire 4 shots high chest on steel 5 yards. i believe par time was 3 seconds

-Shooting on the move. Shooting steel at distances less than 2 feet and moving back to a distance of 7 yards continously shooting. basic but fun. SHO/WHO/2 hand grip

-Shooting without sights to distances of 25 yards. you could barely see the steel plates from behind the gun at this point but if you can point at it you should be able to hit it. SHO/WHO/2 hand grip

-shooting from seated postion transitioning to standing behind concealment. basic but fun, simulates out to dinner/car jacking scenario. SHO and 2 hand grip

-shooting in total darkness. this was a ton of fun. the instructor flashes paper and steel targets with a flashlight just enough for you to see there was a target. draw, fire & reload in total darkness. timed event.

-second total darkness shoot. 6 threat targets and six hostage targets. instructor flashes either for split second and you need to determine shoot or no shoot and put 3 rounds on paper without hitting hostage/no shoot target. again shots are made in total darkness recalling where the target was, whether shoot or no shoot target and putting rounds on target. a ton of fun.

-the OK Coral shootout. two shooters separated by a wooden barrier stand side by side in front of steel plates. distance 5 yds from the target. a mirror is placed in front and in between shooters so you can see your "opponent" and he can see you. one person is the aggressor and the other reacts to their draw. agressor draws when ready. as soon as he moves to draw the reacting individual may draw. both shooting at own steel targets. outside of simunitions this added stress, concentration and the need to quickly draw and put rounds on target. Again, accuracy is mandatory and stressed. the most important shot is the one that hits its target and better be the first one. rapid shots that dont impact target in upper chest did not qualify. Fun drill. it really drove home the importance of needing to put rounds on target quickly but to maintain accuracy. fast misses dont help in a gun fight.

-moving target that only becomes visible to you after it passes by your small area of concealment. draw, fire as many rounds accurately as you can. fast mover with little time to shoot and a small target zone.

-steel shoot rapid paced walk single hand. walk quickly along all 8 steel targets. cannot stop moving. again need to be high chest shots. OK drill.

-shooting with gun completely hidden from underneath cardboard so you could not see the gun. varying heights. difficult at first. but drills home the point.

-last drill. Repeat of the OK Coral above with added bonus of hands being completely covered in vegetable oil. the purpose of this drill was so Bob T. could simulate to other agents what it was like to fire a gun in the heat of a battle with blood soaked hands. lots of fun.

I could've left some COF out by accident because it seems like we did much more. A very fun 2 days with a lot of competition integrated skills to keep the shooters pushing and to keep the pace up. If you can get to it i dont think you would be disappointed. ToddG might be able to talk more about it this since it is often taught at his old stomping grounds

[gringop]

Thanks for the ARR, it answered a lot of questions I was going to ask. Here are some of my thoughts.

"-Shooting on the move. Shooting steel at distances less than 2 feet..."

WTF? If the above statement is correct then I would never train with that instructor. Did you use frangible, airsoft or wax bullets?

Shooting with sights covered with tape is not point shooting in my definition. My definition of point shooting is not having any kind of visual reference of the gun to target, just using the body index. I realize that one of the drills you described did just this.

For the rest of the drills (excluding total darkness), it seems that you had some kind of visual reference for each drill. This is what I call a basic blocky flash sight picture.

I'm guessing that these differing definitions are why you get some folks being adamantly against it.

Some shooters can do amazing things without sights (Example: D. R. Middlebrooks) but for normal students or LEO trainees is it worthwhile to try to train to that level of expertise or is it better to train them to use there sights at anything beyond gun retention distances?

I think that point shooting from retention has it's place in certain situations but quickly get tired of shooters/instructors who insist that Applegate knew it all and that shooting from the hip is so much faster and that "combat effective hits" are good enough for any defensive situation.

My target zones are the cardiac triangle and the ocular window. If they aren't being hit, it's not combat effective.

Please understand that I'm not accusing you, Irishshooter, of being one of those people and it sounds like the class was very interesting and useful (except for 2 foot steel shooting).

Thanks for opening this interesting and possibly controversial thread.

Gringop

[SLG]

Interesting bio for Bob.

I don't like the term, but "point shooting" is just one "point" on the shooting continuum, and you have to understand the continuum if you want to be a well rounded shooter. A hard front sight focus is at the other end, and most shooting falls somewhere in between.


"-last drill. Repeat of the OK Coral above with added bonus of hands being completely covered in vegetable oil. the purpose of this drill was so Bob T. could simulate to other agents what it was like to fire a gun in the heat of a battle with blood soaked hands. lots of fun."

Just saw this part. Too funny. Sort of.

[STS]

http://www.fightfocusedconcepts.com/home

This guy is local to me and is all about point shooting. A lot of people sing his praises, but the intro video has me a little concerned. I wonder if he is taking "point shooting" to the extreme? It almost seems as if some feel that you should never use your sights.

[TCinVA]

http://www.fightfocusedconcepts.com/home

This guy is local to me and is all about point shooting. A lot of people sing his praises, but the intro video has me a little concerned. I wonder if he is taking "point shooting" to the extreme? It almost seems as if some feel that you should never use your sights.

No offense is meant to the guy in the video...but I bet if we took some of our members around here and put them on the very same targets and measured their hits and in what time they mad their hits I bet you'd see that they would get more precise hits in the same time or better.

There is a time for completely unsighted fire, a time for minimally sighted fire, and a time for very precise sighted fire. The key, as SLG mentioned, is to understand which is appropriate at what times.

The circumstances of the threat you face dictate the shot you must make.

[virginiatactical]

No offense is meant to the guy in the video...but I bet if we took some of our members around here and put them on the very same targets and measured their hits and in what time they mad their hits I bet you'd see that they would get more precise hits in the same time or better.

There is a time for completely unsighted fire, a time for minimally sighted fire, and a time for very precise sighted fire. The key, as SLG mentioned, is to understand which is appropriate at what times.

The circumstances of the threat you face dictate the shot you must make.

Well written +1

[GJM]

Bill Rogers dealt with this last week both in his Sunday night lecture and on the range down in Ellijay, GA. It takes a human .24 on average to respond to a stimulus, aural or visual, and .25 to make an accurate shot from an extended, confirmed ready. For that reason, his eight yard target is exposed for .5 second.

You won't make a hit any faster point shooting, but your ability to make a head shot at that distance, or a body shot at, say 12 yards, goes out the window with point shooting.