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Thread: Comp or Tactical Training

  1. #1
    Member Shokr21's Avatar
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    Comp or Tactical Training

    I am wondering if given the option, which most here would rather train with, someone who is quite accomplished in the competition world (currently) or someone who has made their name via SOF assignments and by developing their brand as a trainer.

    I'll admit to not attending a class of any sort, trainers I deem desirable don't come to IA often, and I have gotten shut down at the local range when my request to host a trainer was turned down.

    What do you deem more necessary -
    Accuracy at speed (think A class or better in USPSA)
    Learning obscure manipulations
    Tactics - can of worms
    etc

    Reason for the question - I shoot a little IDPA and a little USPSA, I was a couple seconds off (2) from M in SSP and am a mid level C class shooter. I seem to see the people who have attended "tactical" classes shoot slow and careful and do all the range choreography (pistol to chest when moving and the confused look around when shooting or when done with the COF), I don't know if they realize how retarded they look doing it, or if it's really subconscious for them, but they're slow and they're not real accurate.

    I know it's a small microcosm, but these guys have done a class with Mac or with VSM not sure, possibly both.

    I would like to think that I could benefit from a class from either side of the fence, I'm curious to know which side you'd suggest for a new gun owner, or a well established gun owner who wants to get better.
    OEF Vet
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  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Shokr21 View Post
    I would like to think that I could benefit from a class from either side of the fence, I'm curious to know which side you'd suggest for a new gun owner, or a well established gun owner who wants to get better.
    Fundamentals, fundamentals, fundamentals. There is no difference between many mid-level shooters and Rob Leatham in basic shooting technique, it is just that his fundamentals are more refined and he is able to accomplish it at faster speeds. I think 90% of gun owners are better off learning the fundamentals before they go to a tactical shooting classes, and definitely before going to competition oriented shooting class (you really should be Sharpshooter, or C class before you attend any sort of competition class that concentrates on stage planning).

    Anyways both schools of thought are good, and competition (be it formal or informal) can help in grain the ability to run the gun to the point that one can dedicate their conscious mind to the problem solving aspects of tactical shooting. Something that I don't think any other shooting, but FoF or actual gun fights (going on assumption here since I've never been in one, and with luck will never be in one).

    But OTOH competition won't teach you tactics, how to respond to attackers, how to deal with gun grabs and such. Tactical training classes excels in that area, particularly if they including Force on Force training.

  3. #3
    Member cclaxton's Avatar
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    I think most trainers would say that you need to train under more than one school/trainer. I pick up different things from different people that works for me. Everyone is different, so you will pick up different things that help you. There is no one perfect "method" or school. They all have something unique and useful to offer.

    Personally, though, I think you need to be good at pistol handling before taking tactics so you don't have to learn the fundamentals. I think IDPA and USPSA help you develop the fundamentals so that handling grip, aim, recoil, use of cover/concealment, etc are all automatic. Then work on tactics, Force on Force, etc.

    CC
    That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state;

  4. #4
    Site Supporter Tamara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shokr21 View Post
    I seem to see the people who have attended "tactical" classes shoot slow and careful and do all the range choreography (pistol to chest when moving and the confused look around when shooting or when done with the COF), I don't know if they realize how retarded they look doing it, or if it's really subconscious for them, but they're slow and they're not real accurate.

    I know it's a small microcosm, but these guys have done a class with Mac or with VSM not sure, possibly both.
    Was under the impression that both those guys were pretty big on fundamentals and not much on the ninja rolls...
    Books. Bikes. Boomsticks.

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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shokr21 View Post
    I seem to see the people who have attended "tactical" classes shoot slow and careful and do all the range choreography (pistol to chest when moving and the confused look around when shooting or when done with the COF), I don't know if they realize how retarded they look doing it, or if it's really subconscious for them, but they're slow and they're not real accurate.
    I see this phenomena too, and I think I know the reason for it. Within the training community, there is a large subset of people who like to jock up and take a bunch of shooting classes, but who do little (or no) self-directed practice. Infrequent, high-intensity training with long dry spells between sessions is a really inefficient way to learn a physical skill.

    Anyhow, who you train with should depend on what your priorities are. If your focus is on winning matches and having a big trophy wall, then you should train with a dedicated competition instructor such as Robert Vogel, Frank Garcia, or Kurt Miller. If you want to learn to defend against a criminal attack, then you should train with Southnarc or Tom Givens. There are also instructors who don't really fall into a competition or a defensive category, but who teach skills and techniques that are applicable in either field - Todd is a good example of this kind of instructor.
    -C

    My blog: The Way of the Multigun

  6. #6
    Site Supporter Tamara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Rhines View Post
    I see this phenomena too, and I think I know the reason for it. Within the training community, there is a large subset of people who like to jock up and take a bunch of shooting classes, but who do little (or no) self-directed practice. Infrequent, high-intensity training with long dry spells between sessions is a really inefficient way to learn a physical skill.
    After my last class with Todd, he complimented me on how much my shooting had improved since the year before, and noted that I must have been practicing, which I had been. Practicing shooting, that is.

    Guess what was slowing me down? Draws and reloads. Guess what I hadn't been practicing? Yeah. That CO2 M&P has been seeing more use lately. I should maybe look into a SIRT.

    (Yeah, yeah, I could just unload and reload my carry piece, but I don't like all that unnecessary administrative coonfingering. That's when *BANG!*s happen. Since every time I cycle a loaded round through the action of a repeater there is a small-but-non-zero chance of a *BANG!*, I try to minimize how often I need to do that.)
    Books. Bikes. Boomsticks.

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  7. #7
    Member orionz06's Avatar
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    I'll second what Chris said and add that none of the "tactical" guys have ever told people to not shoot "too good".

    By that I mean if one of the goals involves shooting well take a class from someone who is one of the best shooters. I assume one of the other goals is being defensive minded and well prepared for whatever. Take a class from one of those guys.

    Personally I would rather take things on a component basis (gamer class, tactical class, fundamentals class, "fighting" class) and blend it all together myself. I find more value in processing the information as I see for rather than how someone else sees fit for me without knowing me or much about me.
    Think for yourself. Question authority.

  8. #8
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shokr21 View Post
    I seem to see the people who have attended "tactical" classes shoot slow and careful
    Some of the self-labeled "tactical" guys just cover their suck with the label "tactical".
    3/15/2016

  9. #9
    Member Shokr21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    Some of the self-labeled "tactical" guys just cover their suck with the label "tactical".
    Fair enough.

    If for the rest of your life you could only train with 2 people, who would they be?

    I think based on various AAR's on various forums I'd have to choose Southnarc and Vogel.
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  10. #10
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shokr21 View Post
    Fair enough.

    If for the rest of your life you could only train with 2 people, who would they be?

    I think based on various AAR's on various forums I'd have to choose Southnarc and Vogel.
    I would reject that limitation outright.

    I've trained with just about everybody on the "tactical" side of the house and I've learned a lot from all of them. I wouldn't willingly give up the time I've spent in class with Ken Hackathorn any more than I would the time I've spent with Craig. I'm hope to do more with both instructors in the future. I've also learned a great deal from Todd...and what meager skill I possess is traceable to getting at least a couple of the lessons he's taught. I'm hoping to attend the class Vogel is offering this year because anyone who is that good with a pistol doubtless has lots to teach me about using one.

    I'd also like to get into a class setting with Cecil Burch, provided I can actually get my right shoulder in decent enough shape to start doing some BJJ and standup.

    I'd like to train with Scot Reitz, Nyeti's group, MacNamara...because I think all of those guys have the ability to teach me something.

    If you're looking at a place to start training with a self defense focus, Craig's ECQC course is a fantastic bargain as he does a superb job of outlining the complexities of use of force and enough street smarts to help you avoid needing to use force in the first place. Tom Givens' handgun course obviously does a superb job of preparing his students for self defense as proven by the mountain of bad guys his students have kinetically pacified.

    If you want to be a Grand Master, Vogel's course may be just the ticket. I'm sure it's a great course, but not having taken it I can't really give an opinion on it. My concern with attending Vogel's course is whether or not I'm skilled enough to benefit fully from it...but even if I don't get everything possible I'm sure I'll leave it better than I went into it.

    The more training I've done, the more I've realized how much various instructors have to offer, and the more I've come to understand my own limitations. That makes me reluctant to pick just a couple of instructors/courses to do...and none of the good instructors I've trained with would encourage sticking to just their program.

    Some of the bad ones would.
    Last edited by TCinVA; 02-18-2013 at 09:49 AM.
    3/15/2016

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