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Thread: DOJ memo: Drone strikes on U.S. citizens can be legal

  1. #41
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doctorpogo View Post
    If you're watching someone engaged in noisy public coitus, it may or may not be rape; it could be Mardi Gras. Shooting the guy off of her, at least without checking the calendar, may be a bad idea. It's not a bad parallel.

    Posse comitatus is intended to limit Federal, and especially Presidential, use of the armed forces against US citizens. Bush tried to jack with it but was rebuffed; Obama has successfully altered it in the name of TWOT.

    Everything that was bad about Bush, Obama is better at.
    The capabilities and operations of the US intelligence community goes way beyond the US military. Posse comitatus isn't really relevant to the core issue here.

    Quote Originally Posted by LOKNLOD View Post
    I'm all for whacking the real bad guys, and would not lose a wink of sleep if I were the one who had to push the "F-U" button on the Bin Ladens of the world and then watch it happen.

    Still, when it comes to stuff like this, I think the principle of imagining any powers you'd like to see granted to the guys on your side, being in the hands of your absolute worst enemies.
    Exactly. We need to be able to pursue terrorists in an effective way. The current execution does not provide enough protections for US citizens, but that doesn't mean the answer is to revert to pre-9/11 ways of going about business.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    As if pursuing, detaining and trying terrorists is actually that simple......you realize these are terrorists, not simple criminals, right? That trying one isn't the end of terrorism, that they're part of networks that we still have to pursue after neutralizing one member?
    And yet we take down organized crime using these methods.

    Trying terrorists in civilian court means you have to disclose intelligence. Many times, this would mean current, actionable intelligence. So we try one dude in an open court, and we lose a significant amount of intelligence on the organization we're trying to penetrate. In addition, the enemy (actually, the whole world) can see how we operated to penetrate these networks. So then, we're set back years and have to start over on the next guy.....all the while our enemies are operating under new networks, free from our influence or monitoring.
    Again, see organized crime as an example.

    How.....in the world.....do you expect us to actually win against terrorists if we shot ourselves in the foot every time we wanted to take someone out of their organization? Thinking it's as simple as you wrote just blows my mind. That sort of system led to such wonderful events such as the Khobar Towers, embassy bombing, USS Cole, and that little event labelled 9/11.
    All of which were perpetrated by foreigners. See previous statement about not giving a crap about dropping ordnance on non-citizen bad guys OCONUS. But thinking that the executive branch should have the legal authority to execute US citizens with zero oversight, zero justification, nothing more than "Well, I say he's a bad guy so it must be so!" blows my mind.

  3. #43
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LHS View Post
    But thinking that the executive branch should have the legal authority to execute US citizens with zero oversight, zero justification, nothing more than "Well, I say he's a bad guy so it must be so!" blows my mind.
    As it does mine. I'm not an advocate for such.

    ETA: To quote Andrew C McCarthy, the man who prosecuted the Blind Sheikh, "A war is a war. A war is not a crime, and you don’t bring your enemies to a courthouse."
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  4. #44
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    I have no problem with killing terrorists.

    I have a big problem with definition of terrorist being "Anyone the president calls a terrorist." Because regardless of how good our intelligence services are, with no oversight or due process that is all we the public are going with on this.

    Due process in this case doesn't have to be our full criminal justice system, but it does need to be *something*.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    ETA: To quote Andrew C McCarthy, the man who prosecuted the Blind Sheikh, "A war is a war. A war is not a crime, and you don’t bring your enemies to a courthouse."
    I'm fine with that, as long as it doesn't involve killing US citizens with no due process or oversight.

  6. #46
    The War on Crime, War on Poverty, War on Drugs, War on Terrorism...

  7. #47
    Dot Driver Kyle Reese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IRISH View Post
    The War on Crime, War on Poverty, War on Drugs, War on Terrorism...
    Don't forget Romney's "War on Women"......

    Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drang View Post
    Promise?
    Yes. I promise!
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jac View Post
    We do? How? And who are they anyway?

    We should? Why? What are THEIR crimes? Who presented the evidence of said crimes, and how was it obtained?


    Probably not, though I hesitate to make such concrete statements about the intent of any politician. However, it doesn't really matter who the target(s) might be. At its heart, it's not even really about the US Constitution. It's about the fact that a small group of people who are supposed to be subordinate to the law have decided that they can kill people of their choosing without any oversight, any proof of actual crimes having been commited, or any real suspicion or proof that a crime MAY be commited.

    It's about State sponsored murder. It's about turning the clock of law, philosophy and civilization back 300 years. And in a community which argues so strongly that the 2nd Amendment was written in recognition of every human's right to defend himself against Tyranny, you'd think there'd be more consideration given to the implications of how this country's government is trending.

    But, of course, it's about THEM. And we can kill THEM without anything like due process or even after-the-fact justification. Because they're THEM. And it serves them right, for not being US.
    "The Looming Tower" by Lawrence Wright is a good foundational text for establishing a baseline of THEM. Walid Phares book "Future Jihad" is outstanding for its overview of history and setting the table for what we are dealing with re THEM. I must say though, it's a little late in The Long War for establishing these baselines.

    This is war. This ain't crime fighting. We could learn a lot about war 300 years ago.
    Last edited by JHC; 02-06-2013 at 07:03 PM.
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

  10. #50
    Member Corlissimo's Avatar
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    Wow! All this "US" and "THEM"... Has everyone here read Donovan's "The Way of Men" or is it just my imagination?

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