Gun Control Debate Podcast - Bringing in the Ringers

[Seven_Sicks_Two]

I've been invited to participate in a debate that will focus on gun rights in America. I was just forwarded a list of prospective questions that may or may not be covered in tomorrow's debate. The anti-rights crowd seems to focus on feelings and emotions rather than on fact. I'd like to be able to present our position and support it with data. I know that it is short notice, but I'd really appreciate some help, input and ideas from you guys.

I've included some of the questions that I expect to encounter in bold and I've included a Cliff Notes response:

How would increased gun regulation affect gun injuries and ownership rates? Increased regulation will have little affect on ownership. I live in CA, a state with very severe restrictions, and thousands of firearms are purchased legally in the state every day. You'll never be able to wave a magic wand and make guns disappear.

How can we help prevent gun injuries? Education. Programs like NRA's Eddie Eagle would be a good start.

What effect do more guns on the market have on gun injuries? CDC data suggests that there are between 14,000 and 19,000 accidents per year. This number is borderline statistically insignificant considering there are approx. 300 million guns in the U.S.

When compared to other countries the U.S. has by far the largest gun ownership rate. Does this high rate have an overall negative effect on society? No. (That was easy)

Would you be in favor of strict gun regulation (fingerprint gun matching, wireless safety areas, large scale crackdown on unregistered guns)? No. Such technology is ineffective or doesn't exist. LEOs would be early adopters if the technology existed or was effective.

Less civilian guns has a direct correlation with lower criminal activity. Isn’t this proof that fewer guns is better for society? Chicago. 'Nuff Said.

We already regulate and ban many dangerous weapons. Would you be in favor of lifting those bans? (on, for example, surface to air RPGs)? This gets tricky. Am I correct in assuming that BATFE would classify RPG's as DD's subject to a $200 transfer fee per round and another $200 on the launcher?

The second amendment was created at a time of gun infancy. Do you think the founders of the constitution would be as unrestrictive if they had the knowledge of the power of modern day weapons? Yes. They had just overthrown an oppressive foreign regime and would have traded in the Brown Bess for a Colt 6920 given the option.

Among industrialized nations, the U.S. firearm-related death rate is more than twice that of the next highest country and eight times the average rate of its economic counterparts. To what would you attribute this phenomenon and what would you propose we could do to improve? Guns in America: 88 per 100 people. Gun deaths: 10.2 per 100,000. Sorry folks, that's the cost of liberty. I'd imagine many of those victims would have been killed by other means if no gun was available.

The next few questions focus more heavily on data:

Can you offer a method for dramatically reducing/eliminating illegal firearms. What data do you have to support your claim? The issue isn't "illegal guns", it is criminality. Vigorously prosecute people that lie on the 4473, stiffen penalties for being a prohibited person in possession of a firearms.

Can you offer a method for dramatically reducing/ Suicides by Gun? What data do you have to support your claim? Really outside my area of expertise. Suicide prevention should be the goal. the instrument used should not matter.

Can you offer a method for dramatically reducing accidental shootings by guns? Such as Kids? What data do you have to support your claim? NRA's Eddie Eagle program.

Can you offer a method for dramatically reducing Mass shootings? What data do you have to support your claim? No. Crazy people will do crazy things. The elimination of phony "Gun Free Zones" would eliminate target rich environments.

Why has the NRA worked to prevent the NIH from conducting scientific research on gun violence in the US? Isn’t this fundamentally anti-science? I've read of folks discussing this and stating that NIH was anti-gun and using skewed data but couldn't find sources to support this.

I'd really appreciate any data, ideas, insights, sources, etc. that you all can help me out with.

Thanks!

[Drang]

What effect do more guns on the market have on gun injuries?

Check the CDCs accident stats as well as crime stats. Gun ownership has been steadily growing for decades, and the numbers (rates) of accidents have been just as steadily declining.

Would you be in favor of strict gun regulation (fingerprint gun matching, wireless safety areas, large scale crackdown on unregistered guns)? No. Such technology is ineffective or doesn't exist. LEOs would be early adopters if the technology existed or was effective.

And the low-tech "crackdown on unregulated guns" would only be possible via a wide-spread violation of human, not to mention Constitutional, rights of a breath taking scale.

Less civilian guns has a direct correlation with lower criminal activity. Isn’t this proof that fewer guns is better for society? Chicago. 'Nuff Said.

Suggested alternate: "No it doesn't." THEN mention Chicago. And DC. And Mexico.

We already regulate and ban many dangerous weapons. Would you be in favor of lifting those bans? (on, for example, surface to air RPGs)?

WTF is a "surface to air RPG?" This illustrates the problem of people who know nothing about a subject trying to write laws effecting that subject. Do you mean a rocket launcher, of which the most prominent Russian example is the "Rocket Propelled Grenade", RPG? Or a surface to air missile, like the US Stinger? Two different things, which have a few similarities,including the fact that gun banners like to use them as red herrings to somehow bolster their argument that we shouldn't be able to own semi-automatic rifles with certain cosmetic features.

This gets tricky. Am I correct in assuming that BATFE would classify RPG's as DD's subject to a $200 transfer fee per round and another $200 on the launcher?

Don't play their game.

Among industrialized nations, the U.S. firearm-related death rate is more than twice that of the next highest country and eight times the average rate of its economic counterparts. To what would you attribute this phenomenon and what would you propose we could do to improve?

To what would I attribute this? You lying with statistics. How to improve? ha!

Can you offer a method...? What data...?

Not my job. None of my guns have killed anyone. (Except possibly some military surplus guns I may own.)
And why should I try and offer data to you, when you don't seem interested in facts? We, that is, the gun rights community, have been offering facts and figures and statistics for years and you ignore or deny them. You aren't interested in facts, the only thing your side is interested in is making my life more difficult, to the extent (which we are seeing in more and more proposed legislation across the country) of confiscating my lawfully owned property.

Why has the NRA worked to prevent the NIH from conducting scientific research on gun violence in the US? Isn’t this fundamentally anti-science?

Because 1) it's not a health issue, and 2) all such "research" is politically motivated, and designed to prove a foregone conclusion, i.e., guns are eeeeevil and must be taken out of the hands of the civilian populace, only to be entrusted to the hands of government agents, like those stalwarts in California who shot up two pickup trucks because they bore a slight resemblance to a wanted fugitive.

Don't be afraid to hit below the belt...

[Seven_Sicks_Two]

Thank you for you insight and advice.

WTF is a "surface to air RPG?" This illustrates the problem of people who know nothing about a subject trying to write laws effecting that subject. Do you mean a rocket launcher, of which the most prominent Russian example is the "Rocket Propelled Grenade", RPG? Or a surface to air missile, like the US Stinger? Two different things, which have a few similarities,including the fact that gun banners like to use them as red herrings to somehow bolster their argument that we shouldn't be able to own semi-automatic rifles with certain cosmetic features.

Don't play their game.

I think that it might not help to argue semantics about RPG's vs. Stingers. What is the best way to help to rationalize civilian ownership of MGs, SBRs and suppressors? Treat them as statistically insignificant? Point out that they are rarely used in crimes? I think that a gun banner would point to lack of availability as an example of effective gun control. There is clearly a difference between having a gun safe full of EBRs and having a nuke in the garage. Where do we draw the line?

Don't be afraid to hit below the belt...

I think that this is a lesson that we have been hesitant to learn. The other side has no problem metaphorically hiding behind children and making up facts. We're winning, but we shouldn't always have to be on the defensive every time a nut job shoots up a school.

[tremiles]

As far as comparisons to other industialized nations, I would argue that none of them are in close proximity to Mexico.

[TAZ]

Among other things that can be mentioned wrt the whole infancy/couldn't have envisioned argument is the Internet, smartphone, TV... The founding fathers couldn't have envisioned people having video conferences via hand held devices, yet we still offer 4th amendment protection to those devices. How about hard core porn? Could the founders have envisioned that? Probably not, but its still protected "speech". Should CNN be stripped of its right to free press since they don't print anything??