You guys are obviously right. But it just seems like there should be more an officer can do about physical resistance. There should be some kind of SERIOUS consequence for fighting with a police officer.Originally Posted by rsa-otc
Exactly, and Once the threat ceases so does the justification to continue to fire.
There is serious consequences, its called felony obstruction. I have charged someone with felony obstruction as well as misdemeanor obstruction of EMT/Paramedics. There are lesser levels of obstruction my city even has a city ordnance but any violent physical sort of hand to hand fight is felony. If a perp goes for your gun that is a deadly force situation, as well as your asp baton, oc spray, or taser. A straight street brawl one on one does not constitute deadly force, two or more?, depends there is lots of factors. Most perps fight to get away, the ones that want to fight to fight? Well you give them no quarter and whoop that ass. This Officer would have been well with in his rights/use of force policy to deploy oc, asp baton, etc. Some areas have it ingrained in them that you fight the police, its the nature of the beast of being a cop. One must always be prepared to fight, and your most useful tool is your radio because then you can call all your friends who will drive fast with shiny lights to get there and whoop some ass. As they say you can't out run Motorola.
Having been a career COP, I guess I see this a little differently. I really didn't see any time when that COP wasn't in control of that scuffle. Being in "hostile" territory, he didn't want to escalate his use of force unless it was really necessary. Been there - done that. Had it been a more secluded spot - that would have been over in seconds.
The POS he was arresting was doing a lot more "resisting" than "assaulting" and had it been necessary, that COP looked more than capable of administering another level or force had it been required.
It was worth watching just to see that mouthy female get hooked up.
The path of least resistance will seldom get you where you need to be.
+1.
"Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer
I can understand what you are saying a little bit, but if he was in control that dude should have been in cuffs and in the back of his car. Not wanting to go full on into the fight because of a crowd is a good way to get hurt or killed. Yes it could escalate the zoo behind him which at that point it is really bad, but the chances are higher of them getting involved the longer he sits there and fights with the dude. If he would have taken the upper hand and put the guy in cuffs and in the back of his car the looking gallery would have probably gone else where. I am not going to monday night quarterback this Officer because I am not him and I wasn't there, but I know too many newer cops that are scared to go hands on because of what the public thinks or that they will get a use of force complaint. Everything should be swift and burtal when it is called for and when the cuffs are on you disengage completely.
I did help a cop that had his hands full in 1987... I was working in the Hartford jail ( Hartford Ct.)
It was a night off in the winter time a few of us where out at a bar when I looked outside and saw a cop fighting with 2 guys.
I ran out of the bar and body slammed one of the bad guys I had many use of force encounters at work and also did some professional wrestling a few years before.
I would do the same today if I saw a cop having problems that is no bull shit.
Thanks for posting this. It will be played at roll call for my guys and gals today...
That video brings back some memories. I spent some time as a public housing officer in a relatively busy metro area. There is no telling how many crappy cell phone videos there are of our group tussling with suspects while a bunch of people stand around and trash talk.
I was in more "fights" than I can remember in my short time in LE, but I can count on my fingers the number of people that actually tried to hurt or kill me. It is rare that someone fights police to "win" the fight. All most people want to do is get away. They will try and cause just enough of a distraction to make a break for it.
The guy in this video is obviously someone that just wants to get away, but we only know that in hindsight. The trouble for LEO's is that you do not know who you are facing before the fact. Is this guy just going to try and land enough blows to make me turn him loose, or is he going to try and physically crush me without a thought to what his next move is? When you tangle with the guy that really wants to hurt you, you'll know it. He may let you know at the onset of festivities, or his motivation may change in mid-fight. By the time you figure it out you are already behind and there is a decent chance you will get hurt. It's far better to go ahead and assume that everyone offering resistance wants to hurt you. When it is time to get physical, start and end it quickly and violently. One sided encounters are much preferred to "fair fights" - whatever the hell those are.
I agree. There are two broad strategies to choose from here, but the goal is the same: get control of the suspect without inciting the crowd.
The suspect seems to just be resisting and there is large crowd there that could turn in a heartbeat. If the officer chose to play a little nicer than he could have for fear of inciting the crowd, so be it. I can understand that choice. The risk is that the suspect may decide to up the ante after the fight goes on for a while, or the crowd may just turn on him anyway. I've seen both happen.
The other option is to end the confrontation as quickly as possible. This might look ugly (hard strikes, batons, Taser, etc.), but it (hopefully) ends the encounter and gets the suspect in the back of the car before he has much of a chance to voice his opinion on the matter. Of course the risk here is that you anger the crowd into action and now have multiple people to deal with instead of one. I would argue that you face this risk with either strategy, so just end the fight ASAP.
I've experienced consequences with both strategies. The first time I ran into someone that really wanted to hurt me, I thought going into the fight that he would just resist. I quickly realized I had bitten off more than I could chew. I didn't recognize the threat for what it was until I was already at a significant disadvantage. Luckily help was close and it quickly turned into a pile of asses and elbows with all but one of the participants dressed in blue polyester. Had I been by myself, it would have not gone well for me. After that, I decided never to half-ass a fight again. To hell with how bad it might look.
Dominating the fight early can have consequences too. I sparked a mini riot in one of our housing projects when I started in on a resisting suspect with an ASP baton. This joker already had two officers hanging off of him when I showed up, and it didn't look like anyone was going to get him in cuffs anytime soon. So I figured a few pops in the common peroneal from an ASP might change his demeanor (Tasers were not an option at the time). We got control of him in a hurry, but the crowd didn't like the look of the baton. This was the middle of summer in a large housing project, so everyone was outside watching the festivities. By the time we got the suspect in the car, we had over 100 people cussing, throwing crap, and trying to engage us in fights for their "cuz". It took almost everyone on shift to squash that shit.
Encountering resisting suspects is fluid, unpredictable, and messy. You make a choice and you roll with it. Thankfully for the cop in this video (and for everyone that has spent time on the job and is still in one piece), luck was on his side.
To those that would offer assistance in this or similar circumstances: I'll echo what others have said. If it looks like I'm in serious trouble, jump on in. I'll figure out real quick who's side your on. As much as I hate to say this though, be very careful about jumping in the mix. LEO's have some protection from liability if they are doing their job. You do not (as far as I know). If you drop a knee on the goober in this video and cause serious injury, I can guarantee that some ambulance chasing lawyer will be salivating at the chance to take you to court. That can have some real consequences. I would never discourage someone from helping a LEO that is in trouble, but go in knowing the risks beyond the immediate physical danger. You have to survive the fight, but you also have to survive the aftermath.
Please feel free to correct me as I could be off base... I thought that citizens were entitled to a certain amount of leeway when helping an officer in distress. Not immunity or anything of that nature but that there were laws to help protect the individual. If there isn't one now there should be.
Under GA law they are protected, when I get home I will have to look up the code section.
Reply With Quote