"Police street fight"

[66L]

The biggest threat to this officer was definitely the crowd. It was pretty obvious that they were both physically spent early on in the fight...my heart rate was up just watching it! He had every justification to OC spray that guy or use a Taser if he had one, but that is by no means second guessing the officer. I have been there several times and it is incredibly difficult to think clearly at a time like that. Kudos to him for not giving up.

If a citizen wanted to help out in a fight like this one, the best thing to do would have been control one of the suspects arms, and then a favorite addition of mine is to control their face. By that I mean use the palm of your hand to push his face away from you and into the ground. I'm not talking about crushing his skull, or any kind of injury. Simply taking away his line of sight to what the officer (and you) are doing make a difference and there is something psychological about controlling someones head that seems to take the fight out of most people. This comes with a big warning though: if you are going for control of a hand, make sure there is nothing in it that can hurt you, and that the officer knows you are there to help (verbally and loud).

If you aren't feeling adventurous enough to jump in, watch his six for him. Even if he doesn't know you are there to help, you can keep and eye on the crowd covertly and add a measure of safety that way.

[ezthumper]

Honest questions... if you were to want to help an officer...

1. What do you say to let him know you are trying to help?
2. How quick do you think those other folks would have jumped in and made the situation worse for the officer and potential helper?

1. Legs, arm or drop a knee on his neck!!
2. That would be one of those "what if's..." If I assisted the officer, it might escalate or it might not, if I don't assist the office it might escalate or it may not. So choosing between the two, I would not think twice and just do it, observe the crowd, and to listen closely and obeying any and all instructions he may have. So if he says back off, I would do just that, but remain in an observation mode of the crowd until back up arrives then take myself completely out of the frame.

I am not one to opine about LEO escalation of force. However, it makes you wonder and see the possible use and place for less than lethal means to end a confrontation.

I've never had the capacity nor requirement to use less than lethal downrange, but this is a good reason why MACP and SOCP have their places.

I'm also disgusted by the onlookers and their comments. I'm just glad to see that all the officer ended up with were some minor scrapes.

While in training, one of the guys asked.."when are we to learn about hand to hand", the instructor looked at him and says "Son, if you are down to hand to hand, then you did not do your job, I expect to see the individual jacked up or or sporting a new air hole, period." I wish we were taught that stuff, because we did run into situations where a little would be nice to know. Most of us took up martial arts, knowing that it most likely would be useful at some point.

[eric0311]

The problem is that most agencies will frown upon closed fist, elbow or knee strikes because they "look" bad, or "how is this going to look on 60 minutes?"...I kid you not, that conversation comes up daily during briefings. Administrators, who haven't been on the street in decades, downright discourage cops from using proven fighting tactics due to the violence involved.

[Shellback]

The problem is that most agencies will frown upon closed fist, elbow or knee strikes because they "look" bad, or "how is this going to look on 60 minutes?"...I kid you not, that conversation comes up daily during briefings. Administrators, who haven't been on the street in decades, downright discourage cops from using proven fighting tactics due to the violence involved.

It's always that way... One person screws it up for the rest of the kids. Unfortunately there are instances where cops tee off on citizens, when it's not appropriate, and then all cops get painted in the same light in every incident. Same thing in the military whenever some meathead does something stupid everybody has to pay the consequences for the actions of others.

In this instance a crowd of obviously hostile individuals encroaching on a physical altercation with no backup in sight... I wouldn't judge him if he was raining blows down on that dude trying to get him to comply post haste. Break contact, deploy taser, prepare to repel boarders... And I definitely would've lent a helping hand to the officer.

[LittleLebowski]

I definitely would have offered assistance.

[imp1295]

The only problem I see with MACP is that for the most part you aren't taught very well how to win, just how to not lose. I think even at Level 1, you should get more training fighting back then just submissions and learning the clinch. I know more is taught in level 2, but for most soldiers Level 1 may be all they get or it may be years before they get to go back for Level 2.

I agree. Thankfully MACP has evolved. SOCP on the other hand is a whole new ball of wax. Greg Thompson created the program exactly because of the inadequacies that you mentioned. Retraint techniques, cuffing non compliant persons, working in close environments, etc. Pretty good program that along with MACP really helps prepare guys and gals. Going to the ground should be the last option if anything to maintain mobility in those situations.

The more I think about it, like many have already stated, it could have gone south in a heartbeat. I am glad it didn't. I'm glad they restrained that loud mouthed female...

[Bigguy]

I was surprised the perp never went for the officer's gun. I'm not in LE and have no experience so the next statement comes from a standpoint of complete ignorance. I'm asking for more knowledgable input.
It seems to me that any physical resistance to an officer is potentially deadly because of the possibility of the officer's weapon falling into the perp's control. More especially when that officer has no backup. Wouldn't he be better off gaining some distance then pulling his weapon? Cuff the perp at gun point, or shoot him if he failed to comply?

[EMC]

I thought the officer used his weight and size well in maintaining control.

[TGS]

Cuff the perp at gun point, or shoot him if he failed to comply?

You can't just shoot people for them not complying with orders. The suspect has to pose some sort of threat to life.

[rsa-otc]

You can't just shoot people for them not complying with orders. The suspect has to pose some sort of threat to life.

Exactly, and Once the threat ceases so does the justification to continue to fire.