Like the song says: "I'm not a coward, I've just never been tested. I'd like to think that if I was I would pass."
There have been threads where we compare notes on ROE's, but I don't know if there's a thread where we write down those lines in the sand. And if we have stories that show how those theoretical ROE's work out in real life, I think that would be valuable to compare and contrast. How did you change your ROE's after a violent or potentially violent encounter?
For myself, my ROE's are simple. I'll use all the non-deadly means at my disposal to protect property. My sig quotes Cooper: "the answer, it seems to me, is wrath." I firmly believe that everyday "normal" folks should fight back when criminals try to make them a victim. I won't use deadly force to protect property, but using non-deadly force opens the possibility that the criminal will escalate to deadly force. In that case, my ROE's are:
- Any B&E type activity gives me a green light. Sometimes it's a punk kid, sometimes it's a coordinated team of hardened murderers, and I don't know how to tell them apart quickly. There's just too much at stake. Otherwise...
- If I see the attacker has a deadly force option but it's not in play, I'm free to draw but not yet shoot.
- If the attacker moves to bring the deadly force into play, it's all fair.
- If I'm not sure whether the attacker is moving to bring deadly force into play, I'll issue verbal commands, and I'll wait until either I'm sure or my safety margin is too small. Then it's all fair.
I don't have to use deadly force in those scenarios, it's just that I won't feel justified outside of those. And "deadly force" can mean many things: multiple dudes or a single big and/or trained dude looking to choke me out could qualify!
I also like the list of boundaries from Kathy Jackson's corneredcat.com for deciding on deadly force - these are "line in the sand" type ROE's and I'll use whatever tools at my disposal: gun, knife, Other Strong Whatever... I feel like I should add to this list, but I can't think of any other absolute NO type scenarios.
- I will not go anywhere at gunpoint.
- I will not be tied up.
- I will not kneel.
- If someone tries to take one of my children, I will fight even at the risk of my child being killed in the resultant firefight.
Now here's my scenario. It's recent, and even though I think I did the right thing, it got me thinking that I should put my ROE's in black and white, see what other informed people think. So it's a bit like cheating on my part, since the I'm writing the ROE's after they've potentially been altered by the scenario where they're tested. I don't think so - the silver lining of this encounter is that I feel pretty comfortable with the scenario and how it maps to how I've always thought to deal with this sort of thing. Decide for yourself!
I recently had a situation where my ROE's were tested right up to the limit. I'm reading email at 1pm on the verandah of a busy coffee shop. Sumdood grabs my laptop and runs. After realizing that it wasn't just a buddy's practical joke, I take off after Sumdood, screaming that if he just drops it it'll be OK, and blah blah blah. (And, I'd like to say, my recent PT pays off because even though Sumdood is faster than me for the first half-block, I start to catch up to him as he slows down...)
He rounds a corner and heads for his getaway car. I'm maybe 10 yards behind him, no way he has time to get in the car. He reaches around to the small of his back, where I see what looks like the butt of a J frame. I stop running, draw, and amp up the vocals even more. As soon as the driver sees my gun, he pulls another half-block ahead in a hurry, leaving his buddy in the dust. (Coward.) I'm walking now, trying to keep some distance but not willing to totally disengage at this point. I maintain maybe a 20yd distance. Sumdood keeps his hand on the J frame grip, but doesn't pull it out and he keeps his back to me. Driver keeps the car moving, too, (the coward,) and Sumdood is having a hard time getting in. Eventually, Sumdood manages to get in the car and driver peels out of there.
I had a lot of options going through my head. I could have kept chasing Sumdood, and either shot him if he pulled his J frame, or else tackled him and dealt with the fray - as I thought about this, I felt fairly confident that driver would have left his buddy to his fate, but the chance of 2-on-1 was not small enough, and Sumdood's gun added to the risk. It briefly occurred to me to shoot into the dirt, thinking to scare off the driver and leaving Sumdood without a ride - or even to shoot the car for easier identification later. (I couldn't read the plate.) I considered backpedaling around the corner, but I felt comfortable that I could get solid hits and even if Sumdood got a shot off with his J frame, at 20yd the safest thing to be was his target. I also thought that maybe it wasn't a J frame? I could see the butt, but maybe it was a cell phone or...something. I thought a lot of other things, too. But in the end I followed my ROE's - I refused to sit back and take it when robbed or mugged, I got ready to use deadly force when I saw an appropriate threat, and I chose not to escalate the situation once deadly force came into play.
Would love to hear ROE's and how any scenarios where they played out might have caused them to evolve.
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Originally Posted by Mitchell, Esq.
