Ultralight 223 or 9mm Carbine

[TGS]

So, I'd like to buy a lightweight carbine of some type for a family member who is stricken with fibromyalgia, thus weak and sensitive to pain. My 14.5" AR15 is too heavy. A 12ga shotgun is a good weight, but if fired can arguably be as dangerous for her health as the attacker due to recoil (ok, hyperbole, but you get the point). A .22 is a good weight and low recoil, but the reliability of such is seriously in question. So, I guess what I'm looking for is the carbine version of Claude Werner's "Old Man Gun."

What the weapon does not need to do:
Run hard through a carbine course
Last tens of thousands of rounds before major component replacement
Have better than 4 MOA accuracy

Something that is 223, or even 9mm, would be preferable at ~5lbs. I do not have the money to build an expensive custom AR15, ala Rob Jensen's awesome "Featherweight" rifle for his wife, if you are familiar with such. Looking at a grand tops on price.

What I'm looking at right now is the Kel-Tec Sub-2000, the Kel-Tec SU16, or a franken-AR using a Cav Arms polymer lower and ~.55" turned barrel....the advantage with the AR15 is that components could be upgraded to higher quality or lighter weight items as time goes on.

None of these are what we around here would consider to be optimum for our needs or wants, but I'm not looking for a fighting-grade AR for duty or expecting these to perform as such, either. I'm wondering if any of you have experience with them and can comment on their use in the context I've provided. Also, if you have experience with some other carbine that might fit this "mission," I'd love to hear. For instance, I looked around at alternative options, such as a pump-action rifle, but found their weight at 7.5lbs to be more than what I'm shooting for. I realize that 9mm carbines are somewhat a thing of the past, so if you have experience with one I haven't mentioned also bring that up.

And, of course, if any of you have a similar mission for an ultra-light backpacking semi-auto/repeating rifle or some similar concept, I think that would be interesting to hear about.

[Kevin B.]

I had a similar need for my wife. That role is being filled by an M&P 15-22. I understand about the reliability concerns about a rim fire, but mine has had no issues in more than 2000 rounds.

Alternatively, have you considered the Beretta CX-4 Storm? I put about 500 rounds through a 9mm one a few years back and it ran without issue. I was not really a fan of the platform, but it may be a viable option for you and Beretta 92 mags are plentiful.

[JAD]

Since black rifles of any sort are going to be a little awkward logistically for a while, I might suggest having a look for a Win 94 in .357. Just as light as my MT6530 (lighter, even), and buying .357 is a lot easier than .223 right now. A marlin 336 in .30-30 might work really well too -- I don't know what their recoil is like.

A very thorough deburr and this refinish of the loop might be necessary in light of the person's affliction.

[SeriousStudent]

Is it still possible to track down a Marlin 9mm Camp Carbine?

Pretty simple design, it's a 9mm blowback. The mag supply and parts might be problematic, though.

[TGS]

All great comments so far, thanks.

As for availability of evil black rifles, consider this the brain-storming phase. I'd like to consider all options.

As for the Beretta Cx4, I actually know someone with one and that had slipped my mind. It's more expensive and 2lbs heavier than the Sub-2000, which I have read is actually decent for what it is and in the running for Kel-Tecs most functional, best designed/produced firearm. I'll have to get more opinions on these two.

As for the Camp Carbine, it looks like they're on gunbroker for $800-$850 as well as mags being available. What's the opinion on their reliability?

[Kyle Reese]

All great comments so far, thanks.

As for availability of evil black rifles, consider this the brain-storming phase. I'd like to consider all options.

As for the Beretta Cx4, I actually know someone with one and that had slipped my mind. It's more expensive and 2lbs heavier than the Sub-2000, which I have read is actually decent for what it is. I'll have to get more opinions on these two.

As for the Camp Carbine, it looks like they're on gunbroker for $800-$850 as well as mags being available. What's the opinion on their reliability?

I owned a Camp Carbine about a decade ago, and was not impressed with it's reliability. I sold it for a loss and considered myself lucky.

[Odin Bravo One]

Yeah, I see them (Camp Carbines) on the local for sale boards from time to time. But reliability has also plagued the Camp Carbines, in addition to the spare parts, accessories, etc.

The lever .357/.38 is a sound option. Rifle weight is a little heavier than the 5# desired weight, but recoil with .38's is nill. .357 Mag is pretty negligble but if it is too much, you are getting decent velocity out of the .38 and 16" barrel.

An M&P15/22 meets the weight, and I have no issues with recommeding based on it's reliability. Certainly .22LR is not an ideal caliber, but it is still better than .0000 caliber.

30-30 recoil is much like that of an AK. Snappy and sharp. Not excessive or painful by any means...........unless you have a pre-existing physical condition. Not what I would recommend for someone where recoil is a serious consideration.

I'm not a fan of the Kel-Tec's. They are not all lemons, and usually if it is going to suck, they at least have the decency to suck right out of the box. But the 16 is a snappy gun, and I just have serious doubts that they would hold up and/or work when they needed to. I know this gun is not going to a carbine/SMG course, but the KT's are cheaply made, and have a real chincy feel about them. Not for my loved ones...........

[GJM]

While the .44/.357 lever guns are pretty light weight, the Marlin 30-30 is quite heavy, as I was reminded of as I was handling mine yesterday. How about a skinny barrel Colt upper AR or a Mini 14?

[TGS]

While the .44/.357 lever guns are pretty light weight, the Marlin 30-30 is quite heavy, as I was reminded of as I was handling mine yesterday. How about a skinny barrel Colt upper AR or a Mini 14?

A skinny barrel (.55") AR is definitely something I want to consider.....in general, the preference would be a 223/5.56 instead of 9mm for obvious reasons. But, from what I'm seeing, an AR15 isn't going to get ~6lbs without either 1) Expensive components, or 2) Components of questionable quality, such as the Cav Arms polymer lower. A Cav Arms polymer lower might be just the ticket for this job, or it might be a raging POS by any standard. I don't know.

The Mini 14 is a consideration as well. At 6lbs, depending on the balance, it might be a good option. How would you describe the balance of the weapon?

The person I know with the Cx-4 also has a Mini-14 and Mini-30. I need to get up with him.

GJM, are all your experiences with ultralight backpacking guns limited to 12ga shotties and full caliber rifles, or have you any experience using lightweight 5.56 rifles as well? What about any social circles you find yourself part of that might.....what would they say if they were here?

[JHC]

While the .44/.357 lever guns are pretty light weight, the Marlin 30-30 is quite heavy, as I was reminded of as I was handling mine yesterday. How about a skinny barrel Colt upper AR or a Mini 14?

Agree, Marlin 336's feel a pound or more heavier than a Win 94. My experience around a couple of Marlin model 60's is they ran extremely reliably (Old Man's Gun?). I love mine. One can dump 5 or 10 rounds into a tea cup at 7 yards in a flash.