Desperate OIS from San Bernardino

[Utm]

I'd say almost all of them .... they too often just aren't aimed very well.

I am going to strongly disagree. There are loads of videos where rounds are going out and no aiming is taking place

[Noah]

Serious question based on what we see in body cam footage- should heel mag releases come back?

[blues]

I think this thread should be moved out of the LE section to an area with broader parameters.

[Clusterfrack]

I think this thread should be moved out of the LE section to an area with broader parameters.

Moving to Mindset & Tactics...

[feudist]

Serious question based on what we see in body cam footage- should heel mag releases come back?

Based on this and numerous other incidents with operator induced malfs(like activating the slide lock) I think a serious consideration to raising awareness of this as an issue and discouraging any extended controls should exist.

Heel mounted releases raise their own issues like activation against car seats.
All modern service handguns are rooted in legacy designs that were intended for one handed use. From there, the Modern Technique and competition have driven design components like safeties, slide locks and magazine buttons with a (perhaps undue) emphasis on split second speed and fire continuity. I think the current design trend towards completely ambi guns is wrongheaded(I'm a lefty...hand, not politics) and simply adds failure modes.
I do see the contradiction of this statement in regards to this particular incident where the rapid reload was a reasonable response to the unusually determined opponent.

The dominance of the forward thumbs grip technique might also be a contributor. It puts both thumbs in closer proximity to the controls where recoil can cause inadvertent activation. It's possible that the flying thumb or thumb over thumb techniques might be better combat techniques than they are pure shooting techniques.

Training to use a handgun as it will be used under worst case conditions is simply impossible to do live fire with any degree of acceptable safety. Even Limit of Human Function stuff like USPSA is still heavily formalized and deliberate.
It's only with the ubiquity of bodycams that this has become a noticeable occurrence. Before that, all emphasis was on mechanical reliability.

[psalms144.1]

Serious question based on what we see in body cam footage- should heel mag releases come back?

The BC video isn't terribly clear. To ME, it looked like the failure of the in-battery reload was a failure to fully seat the magazine. Is there something indicating that the mag was properly seated but inadvertently released?

[1911Nut]

The BC video isn't terribly clear. To ME, it looked like the failure of the in-battery reload was a failure to fully seat the magazine. Is there something indicating that the mag was properly seated but inadvertently released?

My impression as well . . . failure to seat the magazine fully.

[Noah]

Based on this and numerous other incidents with operator induced malfs(like activating the slide lock) I think a serious consideration to raising awareness of this as an issue and discouraging any extended controls should exist.

Heel mounted releases raise their own issues like activation against car seats.
All modern service handguns are rooted in legacy designs that were intended for one handed use. From there, the Modern Technique and competition have driven design components like safeties, slide locks and magazine buttons with a (perhaps undue) emphasis on split second speed and fire continuity. I think the current design trend towards completely ambi guns is wrongheaded(I'm a lefty...hand, not politics) and simply adds failure modes.
I do see the contradiction of this statement in regards to this particular incident where the rapid reload was a reasonable response to the unusually determined opponent.

The dominance of the forward thumbs grip technique might also be a contributor. It puts both thumbs in closer proximity to the controls where recoil can cause inadvertent activation. It's possible that the flying thumb or thumb over thumb techniques might be better combat techniques than they are pure shooting techniques.

Training to use a handgun as it will be used under worst case conditions is simply impossible to do live fire with any degree of acceptable safety. Even Limit of Human Function stuff like USPSA is still heavily formalized and deliberate.
It's only with the ubiquity of bodycams that this has become a noticeable occurrence. Before that, all emphasis was on mechanical reliability.

I agree, I hate extended controls. I think they definitely contribute to the user induced malfs we see on body cam. I don’t think I’d blame the grip, as with the amount of imprecision and fumbling that we see with the thumbs forward grip wouldn’t magically be better with a thumb over thumb- which also puts thumbs closer to other controls.

I think Psalms is right, it could have been palm pressing mag release (common) or failing to seat the full mag on a closed slide (also common). I assumed mag release at first because it looks like he got multiple shots off first.

At my first USPSA match, I’d done only slide lock reloads on the range for a decade. In the match, all my reloads were slide forward. I failed to seat the mag at least twice.

Not a mistake I made again and caused me to change my dry training, but I wasn’t prepared for the real conditions of seating the full mag against the closed slide and used the same level of force I did with a locked slide without thinking.

[GJM]

There is a reason many people download their Glock mags by one cartridge.

[Noah]

There is a reason many people download their Glock mags by one cartridge.

I usually download all my reload mags, but my Glock mags rattle like crazy when downloaded

I only run +1 on guns where doing so does not add any pressure to the system. Most guns I’ve had, loading full plus 1 adds significantly to the force it takes to cycle the gun and makes the mag super tight in the gun.

This has also caused a malf for me at a match.