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Thread: Desperate OIS from San Bernardino

  1. #51
    Recovering Revolverist Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Yeah, that post was solid.
    Civility is not a tactic or a sentiment. It is the determined choice of trust over cynicism, of community over chaos.
    -George W. Bush

  2. #52
    Mod Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Excellent post. Copied for future use.

    Quote Originally Posted by feudist View Post
    For the customers, leaving, via the front or back door(you know where it is, right?) is also valid strategery. This incident started in the store and then paused as the deadboy went out to his car. As a customer, the moment a serious argument breaks out or you hear someone say "Call the police" it's time to drop whatever items are in your hand and exit one or the other.
    Otherwise, you're going to have a front seat at a display of the most unpleasant human stupidity...at best. At worst you're remaining in a four way downrange between the victim(who says she's not armed?), the clerk(likewise), the suspect and cops. Hell, maybe other customers.We just saw an example of how sideways that can go.

    As CCWs, our "Mindset and Tactics" should be focused on awareness and OODAing quickly. Our tactics should center on active avoidance, disengagement and escape.
    Tactics, just like Kung Fu, the rollover prone and pulling the trigger straight back need to be practiced and visualized regularly.

    1-Preclusion: I don't have to go inside stop-n-robs, and I certainly don't have to go to that one because they have good breakfast burritos or gas is 5 cents cheaper. Shit can go down anywhere, but it surely goes down mostly in the places you'd expect. Simply don't be there.
    OBEY THE RULE OF STUPIDS.

    2-Avoidance: "If there is a doubt, there is no doubt." Go elsewhere. If anything makes you go "hmm"-that's 100% enough. Listen to your Spidey sense. Be unpleasantly judgmental about people and unChristian in your lack of sympathy(you can do this as a Jew, Muslim or Atheist). Empathy is right out.

    3-Disengagement: Polite(but not courteous) meaningless pleasantries or firm denials while unhesitatingly walking away from strangers who are trying to engage you. Farnam calls them tape loops. Craig calls it MUC. You're not actually listening to what's being said, you're doglegging your route to avoid an ambush and create distance from whoever is trying to distract/approach you. If you can't walk through the Cable salespeople in the aisle at Walmart without breaking stride, you need practice. Or a MUC class.

    4-Escape: The moment hostilities begin in your hearing you un-ass the AO. Instantly. From a determined walk to an all out sprint. If an interlocutor starts displaying pre-assault cues just scamper off blowing your rape whistle possibly spraying OC like a skunk. You either get away or he drops the act.

    5-Preemption: Now we're at the tough guy part. The part everyone practices and talks about. If there is no exit or time, whatever you hit with, hit first, hit hard enough, hit enough...and stop.

    6-Break Contact: If they desist, r.u.n.n.o.f.t. or are convulsing on the ground it's all one to you. Leave the area. Your job isn't to teach lessons, say witty things, detain for the gendarmes or pursue and capture. Get to nearby safety and then notify LE.

    In this incident, the ideal outcome for the customers(whether they were armed or not) in that store would have been to hear about it on the news that evening, give themselves a gold star for alertness, and cross that store off their travel destination list.
    Some guys resist these ideas on the basis that they have a "right" to go anywhere(and they can handle themselves), or that "someone needs to stand up", and taken as a whole this sounds like simple cowardice.
    It's not.
    It's expert, calculated and rehearsed cowardice.
    Instructor/540 Training

  3. #53
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    Very good thread with enlightening posts.

    I'll add that in the midst of everything, the officer had to perform his reloads / manipulations from a non-standard position which may have added difficulty. How many of us have practiced other than standing very often if at all?

  4. #54
    Site Supporter feudist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redhat View Post
    Very good thread with enlightening posts.

    I'll add that in the midst of everything, the officer had to perform his reloads / manipulations from a non-standard position which may have added difficulty. How many of us have practiced other than standing very often if at all?
    Good point.
    Something to occasionally do dryfire, along with malf clearance and some of the other "Downed Officer" shooting positions.
    Good place for dummy cartridges, a SIRT or Airsoft.

  5. #55
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    On Glocks, I would prefer a Gen 3 magazine release be the bigger button of newer generations.

    I liked the XDS MOD 2, but the Ambi magazine release is a deal breaker.


    The P30 has a lot going for it, but the larger magazine release paddles give me pause. Accidentally activating them seems higher than those on the USP or P2000.


    I prefer a secure magazine over a setup that allows me a lightning fast magazine charge.


    Credit to the officer for staying in the fight and for excellent composure throughout.

  6. #56
    Site Supporter feudist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheNewbie View Post
    On Glocks, I would prefer a Gen 3 magazine release be the bigger button of newer generations.

    I liked the XDS MOD 2, but the Ambi magazine release is a deal breaker.


    The P30 has a lot going for it, but the larger magazine release paddles give me pause. Accidentally activating them seems higher than those on the USP or P2000.


    I prefer a secure magazine over a setup that allows me a lightning fast magazine charge.


    Credit to the officer for staying in the fight and for excellent composure throughout.

    That's why God invented the file.

    As a lefty, I ground all my Glock releases down. When I carried a G26 as an ankle BUG, I ground that bitch flush. I also rasped off finger grooves, undercut trigger guards and any other thing that bugged me.

    Re: Stoppages caused by activating slide locks. My old shooting partner had it happen enough that he eventually sawed the external lever off and slingshotted reloads. Problem solved, and staying solved.
    Turns out that it's a convenience in admin handling, not a tactical requirement.

    Most people I suggest that to act like I kicked a puppy.

  7. #57
    Lost River 170gr Hardcast fatdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by feudist View Post
    sawed the external lever off and slingshotted reloads.
    Very simple swipe with the dremel cutting wheel...Did that exact thing on all of my old USPSA Glocks....never had my thumbs get in the way of them again....probably should do it now to my street Glocks
    Support the Second Amendment Foundation and the Firearms Policy Coalition, join and give!

  8. #58
    Recovering Revolverist Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by feudist View Post
    Good point.
    Something to occasionally do dryfire, along with malf clearance and some of the other "Downed Officer" shooting positions.
    Good place for dummy cartridges, a SIRT or Airsoft.
    Oh man, several years ago I started a thread on dryfire drills from downed/cover positions. I think I got one response.

    ETA: I’m a negative Nancy pessimist. Looks like it was actually 5 people. 🤷🏼

    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....actice-why-not
    Last edited by Totem Polar; 04-27-2025 at 02:26 PM.
    Civility is not a tactic or a sentiment. It is the determined choice of trust over cynicism, of community over chaos.
    -George W. Bush

  9. #59
    Site Supporter feudist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totem Polar View Post
    Oh man, several years ago I started a thread on dryfire drills from downed/cover positions. I think I got one response.

    ETA: I’m a negative Nancy pessimist. Looks like it was actually 5 people. 🤷🏼

    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....actice-why-not
    Jim Cirillo* taught what he called the "Downed Officer Defense Course", which also translated into awkward or wadded up positional shooting from behind cover. From the back, supine and laying on each side. Left hand only, right hand only and freestyle.
    Also shooting with different eyes occluded(and glasses smeared with oil), one hand only with different eyes aiming and with only middle fingers on the trigger, since hand hits are so ubiquitous. One hand only reloads and malf clearance



    There can be a lot more to Dry practice than draws, reloads and snaps.

    *If you're ever curious as to how devilishly handsome I was before I lost my sweet girlish laughter, there's a picture of me in his book. I'm the guy with a Springfield hat and a shiteating grin.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by feudist View Post
    Jim Cirillo* taught what he called the "Downed Officer Defense Course", which also translated into awkward or wadded up positional shooting from behind cover. From the back, supine and laying on each side. Left hand only, right hand only and freestyle.
    Also shooting with different eyes occluded(and glasses smeared with oil), one hand only with different eyes aiming and with only middle fingers on the trigger, since hand hits are so ubiquitous. One hand only reloads and malf clearance



    There can be a lot more to Dry practice than draws, reloads and snaps.

    *If you're ever curious as to how devilishly handsome I was before I lost my sweet girlish laughter, there's a picture of me in his book. I'm the guy with a Springfield hat and a shiteating grin.
    You speak, I listen
    Thanks.

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