upgrading stock Remington 870 Express to duty grade spec

[GJM]

A nice feature of the Vang side saddle, is you can easily switch from brass up to down, just by flipping the shells/velcro. Since brass up is more secure, but brass down loads faster, it is nice to be able to quickly change orientation. I use vertical orientation to separate types of ammo -- typically I run my Brenneke slugs one way, and my rubber slug (for non-lethal discouragement to a bear) the other way.

For me, while I like the Magpul rear stock a lot, the jury is still out on the Magpul fore end. When shooting Brenneke slugs, the lip at the rear of the Magpul fore end can be painful.

With both the Magpul and G,G&G fore end, I have a Surefire Scout light with a pressure pad that I can attach and remove as conditions warrant.

[Odin Bravo One]

Sean,
The root of the complaint is based on my experiences with the Scattergun Technologies Side Saddle which held the shells very tightly and don't have a tendency to loosen up under adverse conditions. The Mesa Side Saddle was just an experiment to see if it fit my needs.

Concur completely. ST's side saddle was great.

And I have had a Mesa that loosened up, but it was an early prototype more moons ago than I will admit. The current one has held up well, and I refuse to chase technology and get nickel and dimed to death on accessories for a gun that for me, has a very specific function, and gets a small percentage of limited training time. And I know for a fact I can reload faster with brass down. But with only 12 rounds, I can't afford to lose even one. Carrying more, not on the gun, while an option, is not a very good one for me.

The second biggest issue I find with shotguns these days is that their application can be much more diverse than just a handgun, or just a rifle/carbine. An easy answer isn't there a lot of the time, as the different applications vary so greatly, a great piece of gear, or TTP may not make sense, or work at all for the same make/model of gun, with a different shooter.

The biggest issue, in my mind, is lack of true understanding of what a shotgun can, and cannot do. East Coast, West Coast, and middle America all have great shotgun trainers and instructors. Getting out and shooting the gun hard, along with realistic expectations and applications really help quell a lot of the nic nacks, dohickies, and dodads. (or sometimes just makes it worse) As an aside.....I read some article not too awfully long ago about shotguns, and their effectiveness against people in one of the newstand tabloids (the exact one slips my mind), and I was embarrassed for both the author, and the magazine for publishing the article. The unfortunate reality, is that the majority of gun owners look to the internet and magazines for their info. Both, as we all know are filled with bad gouge.

[TGS]

GJM, Southnarc, ect.....

What do you guys find so appealing about the Magpul furniture?

For recoil absorption, is there something special about the stock other than it having an enormously thick recoil pad? I'm just looking at the price tag, then looking at the price of a Hogue stock, and wondering what specifically the Magpul actually does differently. Not that $100 is an exorbitant amount of money, but it's half the value of my Mossberg 500, so my mind is playing tricks on me. Kinda like buying a C&R mil-surp and putting S&B glass on it.

The biggest issue, in my mind, is lack of true understanding of what a shotgun can, and cannot do. East Coast, West Coast, and middle America all have great shotgun trainers and instructors. Getting out and shooting the gun hard, along with realistic expectations and applications really help quell a lot of the nic nacks, dohickies, and dodads. (or sometimes just makes it worse)

I'm one of those people. All of the shotgun courses I've looked at are 4 hour courses. So, when I see a shotgun course that is only 4 hours, I wonder to myself, "Wow, 4 hours, and a lot of that time is filled up with basic stuff that I probably already know, like 'this is the end the slug comes out of, don't look into it' and so on." So I wonder, is it actually worth it? Is there really that much to using a shotgun where basic skills (transition to pistol, recoil control, stance, ect) don't rollover from carbine? With a carbine or pistol course, it's pretty obvious that there is so much to learn, and from so many different instructors. I look at a shotgun course, and I'm just not seeing much in the way of actually improving myself other than finding another crumpled class certificate underneath my rear car seat 6 months down the line....

Comment?

[Odin Bravo One]

I don't know if I can comment. I have never seen a 4 hour class. Most of the guys I would recommend are a minimum of 8-10 hours (2 safety/talking, and 8 live fire), with about 500 rounds of birdshot, 50-100 slugs/00 buck consumed. For the truly "glutton for punishment", 2 day courses are available............

I don't know what the 4 hour guys teach, their background or experience, and what kind of volume or feedback/critique is being received.

[GJM]

TGS, this is what I Like about the Magpul butt stock. It has a deepish pistol grip area, allowing you to hold the shotgun with one one hand as well as you can with a full pistol grip shotgun, but without the pistol grip protruding down like an AR (which with an extended pistol grip makes manipulation of the 870 safety awkward, pokes you when slung, and makes presenting from a high ready harder). Also, most stocks, like the short Hogue and Speed Feed are made for a comb height using a bead sight. When you shoot heavy buck and slugs, with aperture sights or a T1, the conventional stock designs beat me around my lips, which does nothing for my precision. The Magpul has adjustable comb height, so you have a proper fit with aperture sights or an optic. (As an aside, the Beretta Storm shotgun has the best fitting stock for practical shotgun shooting I have ever experienced.)

Living in Alaska, where we have large bears, I suspect I have a different mission for the shotgun than Sean. The shotgun gives me the ability to stop a bear charge definitively, at close range with a Brenneke slug, the ability to use a rubber slug for shooting a bear in the backside, the ability to harvest game birds with shot, and even use buck shot for visiting the lower 48. I have taken shotgun training for years, in 3-5 day blocks. The places I remember doing shotgun training, and all recommended are Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Louie Awerbuck, Bill Jeans, Randy Cain, the Rogers Shooting School and probably other places I have forgotten. A pump shotgun has perhaps the most power available for practical defensive use, in the most PC form factor imaginable. I am not aware of anywhere a pump shotgun is illegal.

[SouthNarc]

I'll holler buack when I'm sober.

HAPPY NEWVYEAR!!!

GJM, Southnarc, ect.....

What do you guys find so appealing about the Magpul furniture?

For recoil absorption, is there something special about the stock other than it having an enormously thick recoil pad? I'm just looking at the price tag, then looking at the price of a Hogue stock, and wondering what specifically the Magpul actually does differently. Not that $100 is an exorbitant amount of money, but it's half the value of my Mossberg 500, so my mind is playing tricks on me. Kinda like buying a C&R mil-surp and putting S&B glass on it.



I'm one of those people. All of the shotgun courses I've looked at are 4 hour courses. So, when I see a shotgun course that is only 4 hours, I wonder to myself, "Wow, 4 hours, and a lot of that time is filled up with basic stuff that I probably already know, like 'this is the end the slug comes out of, don't look into it' and so on." So I wonder, is it actually worth it? Is there really that much to using a shotgun where basic skills (transition to pistol, recoil control, stance, ect) don't rollover from carbine? With a carbine or pistol course, it's pretty obvious that there is so much to learn, and from so many different instructors. I look at a shotgun course, and I'm just not seeing much in the way of actually improving myself other than finding another crumpled class certificate underneath my rear car seat 6 months down the line....

Comment?

[GJM]

I'll holler buack when I'm sober.

HAPPY NEWVYEAR!!!

Might be more interesting to hear about last night!

[Dagga Boy]

The shotgun is a specialists gun to run correctly. As I have told many before, when run by duffers they amplify mistakes. I fought for most of my career that the carbine was better for "everyone" and the shotgun was for "gun people who train". I think I am the only one who ever hit anyone with a 12ga. at my old place (also did a street light at 30 yards with a slug). Everyone thinks you just hang it out there and yank the trigger and everything dies...........pure b.s. They are a complex system in the anti personnel role with high recoil, limited capacity, they need a ton of specialized manipulations to keep them up and running, all while handling difficult to handle munitions that also need to be matched to the shot.........again, not for the novice.

I have taken a bunch of shotgun classes from lots of people including a couple of week long instructor schools. I followed one week long instructor school the next Monday with a multi day course taught by former special operations people who don't really use shotguns much. It was an education for the special operations guys from a dude who used the 870 practically daily. It is the one system that the squared away L/E shooters REALLY know. They are not carbines, they don't run like carbines, they are work to run......but indoors against limited opposing foes.......they are my number one go to choice. At indoor engagement distances they shoot big giant holes in things that let a lot of air in and fluid out. With slugs, they are my go to choice against vehicles in a CONUS application. Running a red dot really helps in the 24/7 application. It is one of my favorite systems to teach, as they are sort of a thing that most people think they can run, but really have never been "intimate" with.

For training: I got a TON out of ITTS and the LAPD Metro/SIS folks. The LAPD Metro folks have been sort of the guru's on these things for a long time and are very efficient in their manipulations on the gun. ITTS is the place to go on the "manipulations leg". I will admit that I went to Rob Haught the first time figuring I wasn't going to learn much. I was wrong. Rob was able to take my already ingrained handling and manipulations skills and maximize my shooting speed and efficiency. Rob is the guy on the "Marksmanship leg". As far as wrapping your mind around the 12 ga.-Bill Jeans is pretty special when it comes to getting your mind right on most things. For the L/E folks, Mark Fricke does a great job "teaching to teach" the shotgun. I have not taken a class from Louis Awerbuck, but have heard nothing but good things. The key is do not just go to someone who hangs a "shotgun shootin" shingle out. Find people who have actually REALLY run the thing in environments that will mirror yours.

GJM and I would be a good example of what is great with the shotgun. TOTALLY different deployment situations, but both have found that the 12 ga. shotgun is nearly ideal for a majority of what we deal with. While the rifle is the queen of the battlefield, the shotgun is the king when the distance is close and the problem needs solving RIGHT NOW. I think with the current demonization of the modern carbine, a resurgence in the modern shotgun may take hold.

[Kevin B.]

I think with the current demonization of the modern carbine, a resurgence in the modern shotgun may take hold.

I agree. In fact, I just pulled my 870 out of the back of the safe a week or so ago. I am planning on checking my zero this weekend. Does anyone have a good source for Federal Tru-ball slugs? My supply is lower than I thought.

[Dagga Boy]

I agree. In fact, I just pulled my 870 out of the back of the safe a week or so ago. I am planning on checking my zero this weekend. Does anyone have a good source for Federal Tru-ball slugs? My supply is lower than I thought.

I did the exact same thing. I also bought a 18" Remington 1100 tactical. My 870 and the 1100 both have Aimpoints and are set up for evil people hunting. I have bought a couple extra's of my favorite "limited magazine capacity" guns in the last week. I was WAY ahead on evil guns when all this crap happened, so now I am snatching up cool low capacity stuff at great deals while the market is buying the other way. I spent a majority of my adult life hunting armed bad guys at night using .45 pistols and 12 ga. shotguns, so I am actually very at home with them. I always joke around that the first two guns I owned were a Remington 870 and a Colt Govt model. I have literally gone through thousands of guns since then and if it came right down to it, I would probably be just fine with my current hard use 870 and beater 1911.