Willingness

[Lex Luthier]

Also I believe for years he operated a local range where he did training, so more accessible to more people, maybe more in more basic situations. IOWs, he probably trained more people that might be running a convince mart that would make a trek to a place like Thunder Ranch or Gunsite.

This is an excellent point.

I'm enjoying this conversation so far myself. It's helping me distill my own thoughts.

[TCinVA]

As I have the greatest respect for Mr. Givens his talent and abilities no question, it seems to me of all the trainers I know his stats are incredible....how is it so many in his classes have been involved in these SD incidents.....where are these folks living.

Memphis TN.

The vast majority of people he trained live in the most violent city per capita in the United States. A place where they have about 200 violent felons out of prison custody every square mile. They have one hospital that treats more than 10 gunshot wounds per day.

Thankfully most of the country isn't as violent as Memphis.

But practically everyone's corner of the country is more violent than they think it is.

[TCinVA]

Also I believe for years he operated a local range where he did training, so more accessible to more people, maybe more in more basic situations. IOWs, he probably trained more people that might be running a convenience mart that would not make a trek to a place like Thunder Ranch or Gunsite.

TN used to have a training requirement for a concealed carry permit. Tom opened up Rangemaster when he retired from Memphis PD...where he had worked tons of violent crime...and started teaching classes aimed at meeting the permit requirement, but more than that aimed at making people capable of defending themselves.

You're exactly right...the small percentage of us in the country who are accurately described as training junkies were not the bulk of his clientele unlike most of us in this business. His clients were mostly normal people who realized they lived in a dangerous place (usually because they or someone they know had been the victim of the abundant violent crime in the area) and decided they were going to carry a gun. They had to get some sort of training and Rangemaster was located conveniently to fulfill that need.

They had a small sales operation but primarily ran the range and ran training on the range...which is uncommon to see elsewhere in the country.

His numbers come from clients who reported back to him, so even then the numbers aren't 100% comprehensive. The student shooting database is a database of the students who talked to him about it.

I asked once on this very forum if Tom had any sort of number of his students who had needed to draw or display a gun without shooting, to which he replied far too many to keep track of. I believe that because I've touched a gun on multiple occasions without needing to shoot to solve the problem so I'm a couple of those just by myself.

Tom has taught more "normies" than most of the people in the training business just by nature of how his business originally started. Most of his clients were working class and professional class people who were forced to live and work in one of the most violent places in the country. That's one of the reasons why people mention his stats as much as they do, because they are probably about as close as we can get to a real slice of life in terms of the people involved in these incidents.

It even has relevance to LE work because a number of LE agencies work from plain clothes and have a significant percentage of their duty shootings that result from a robbery attempt. IIRC about 1/2 the FBI's shootings happen because violent criminals mistake the agents for normies and initiate a robbery.

[Dog Face Gremlin]

Hmmm......never realized that Memphis was such a dangerous city....being from the Northeast.

[Le Français]

Hmmm......never realized that Memphis was such a dangerous city....being from the Northeast.

A fact which might be unpopular in the pro-gun crowd is that the southeast is a very violent region.

[Leroy Suggs]

A fact which might be unpopular in the pro-gun crowd is that the southeast is a very violent region.

Jackson, Ms., Birmingham Al. to name a couple about as bad as Memphis.

[Robinson]

We live in a quiet 55 and over neighborhood about 25 miles NW of metro Atlanta. Since we moved in here about 5 years ago we've had two murders within easy walking distance of our house. One was a horrible multiple homicide.

[Joe in PNG]

Big cities have always been a magnet for criminals. Just the nature of a large population in a small area.