Are we making a rational argument?

[LHS]

I don't mean to sound bad here, but that is the definition of child like logic in my eyes.

They think that will make a difference. Ok - ban all firearms everywhere in the world. What would have happened if he walked in with a case of cheap glass bottles full of gas w/ rags sticking out? Or a chain saw. Or an axe. Or a knife. Or any number of other implements I can think of.

The question I'm asking: Is there a better way to educate the people described above so that a knee jerk "maybe an AWB" is not their response. It will never be possible to stop the "won't someone think of the children gun ban" megaphone chant.

Why not wait a month and have the NRA start a "truth about guns" campaign? Prime time adds w/ statistics? Interviews with people who were saved by being armed?

ETA: How many school shootings have the Israelis had in the last decade? Or two?

My own tack is to reference things like the Bath, MI school bombing, Beslan, Oklahoma City, 9/11, and other such events to show that when dealing with mass murder, firearms are for amateurs. As long as nutjobs can mix up some incendiaries and/or explosives from common household chemicals, they will find ways to commit mass murder. An AWB doesn't help one whit.

A second tack is to reference the drug war. After all, cocaine and heroin are illegal, but anyone can get some fairly easily, albeit expensively. And then I go into the Poles mass-producing STENs under German occupation in WWII, the Australian crime syndicate that was discovered running a factory producing integrally-suppressed Owen SMGs, Pakistan's home-built gun trade, and the IRA's crude SMG factories during the Troubles. Anyone with a machine shop can make a functional, albeit crude, SMG. With advances in 3D printing coming in the next decade, look for it to become even easier to produce a functional SMG with minimal talent and just a Google search.

The point I try to make is that, as far as guns go, the genie is out of the bottle. You can't ever close Pandora's box. Even if you could, there are far more devastating methods and tools out there, and if we could magically remove every 'assault weapon' from the US, it would just lead to higher body counts when the crazies start tossing Molotovs and pipe bombs or placing IEDs under school buses. At least you have a chance to tackle or shoot a gunman.

[Tamara]

ETA: How many school shootings have the Israelis had in the last decade? Or two?

More than the British? Or the Australians? Not sure. In point of fact, however, the British or Australian solution just wouldn't work here, given the sheer number of firearms and the complete lack of accountability, even a fantasy complete ban a la post Hungerford would be an unenforceable farce. A 99% compliance rate would leave millions of weapons out there, even going by the most conservative estimates.

Frankly, though, going on about the Israelis is as silly and illogical as the Gun Banners fantasizing about complete gun bans; the situations are not at all analogous and besides, the Israelis have bigger fish to fry than school shootings, such as school bombings and school rocketings...

[peterb]

They think that will make a difference. Ok - ban all firearms everywhere in the world. What would have happened if he walked in with a case of cheap glass bottles full of gas w/ rags sticking out? Or a chain saw. Or an axe. Or a knife. Or any number of other implements I can think of.

Look: In all of the recent mass shootings, the primary weapons used have been semiautomatic pistols and rifles. That's the reality we have to be prepared to discuss. "Could have beens" -- although true -- sound like an attempt to evade the point.

Modern semi-autos are efficient bullet dispensers. That's why law-abiding folks like them, and that's also why criminals use them.

We can't deny that if we want to sound rational and responsible.

[BLR]

My own tack is to reference things like the Bath, MI school bombing, Beslan, Oklahoma City, 9/11, and other such events to show that when dealing with mass murder, firearms are for amateurs. As long as nutjobs can mix up some incendiaries and/or explosives from common household chemicals, they will find ways to commit mass murder. An AWB doesn't help one whit.

A second tack is to reference the drug war. After all, cocaine and heroin are illegal, but anyone can get some fairly easily, albeit expensively. And then I go into the Poles mass-producing STENs under German occupation in WWII, the Australian crime syndicate that was discovered running a factory producing integrally-suppressed Owen SMGs, Pakistan's home-built gun trade, and the IRA's crude SMG factories during the Troubles. Anyone with a machine shop can make a functional, albeit crude, SMG. With advances in 3D printing coming in the next decade, look for it to become even easier to produce a functional SMG with minimal talent and just a Google search.

The point I try to make is that, as far as guns go, the genie is out of the bottle. You can't ever close Pandora's box. Even if you could, there are far more devastating methods and tools out there, and if we could magically remove every 'assault weapon' from the US, it would just lead to higher body counts when the crazies start tossing Molotovs and pipe bombs or placing IEDs under school buses. At least you have a chance to tackle or shoot a gunman.

My point exactly. When guns are banned, prices go up. Then black industry follows.

[orionz06]

Not sure what weight it holds with logical people but I've been comparing it to he convenience of teen driving. Statistically we have a Sandy Hook 3 times a week nationwide. I can't think of one parent I know that would like to go back to being a bus driver now that their kids are entrusted with killing machines. That inconvenience is enough to be ok with it. To continue down that road parents hand them cell phones and other distractions as well. My dad gave me gas money to take my brother places. In a sense he doubled down, in the name of convenience of course. Banning a firearm for most has little bearing on their life, as they currently see it. Threaten to ban something that does and there will be an uprising.

[Tamara]

Modern semi-autos are efficient bullet dispensers. That's why law-abiding folks like them, and that's also why criminals use them.

We can't deny that if we want to sound rational and responsible.

See?

I had someone tell me that they were going to try and logically explain the whole "semiauto" thing by using video of Jerry Miculek and I was like "Which are you trying to do? Get them to agree that revolvers are fast enough and you really don't need semiautos? Or get them to ban revolvers, too?"

The Aspie-like inability of The Masters Of Logic on my side to put themselves inside their opponents thought processes is our biggest Achilles' Heel.

[RoyGBiv]

ETA: How many school shootings have the Israelis had in the last decade? Or two?

[BaiHu]

.....

Why not wait a month and have the NRA start a "truth about guns" campaign? Prime time adds w/ statistics? Interviews with people who were saved by being armed?

ETA: How many school shootings have the Israelis had in the last decade? Or two?

This!! With an unfortunate caveat at the bottom.

I just had a 2 hour phone conversation with a student last night, who is a mother of a first grader whom I've taught, and she just needed to talk to someone who knew about guns. She had written a letter that she felt compelled to send to any politician with an address, but didn't want to be ignorant, so she called me, the only responsible gun owner she knows.

I read her letter and it was fairly well thought out, but much of what she asked was already in place, at least in more restrictive states.

Her main thrust was educating and training anyone looking to buy a gun. Now we all know the issues that we would throw at her, but this made her feel safe. I walked her through some of the pros/cons of her suggestions and even gave her some links produced by our discussions on PF.

In the end, I've recognized that we are losing people like her a little bit at a time, because we don't have a voice. The media drowns out our voice and when they do find a voice labeled as ours, they usually corner them into a bad conversation where education is the least of the exchange and finger pointing about how can you eat venison after you riddle it with armor piercing bullets from your Rambo like machine gun!!

So I offered here a solution that she might want to proffer to said politicians:

We have sex ed.

We have drug/alcohol ed.

We have driver's ed.

Why don't we have gun ed, since that's guaranteed buy the constitution?

She like that idea and I like what Bill said about the NRA taking a breather and collecting a big head of steam and then blowing out the facts AFTER they can get all of the facts from the Newtown shooting. Categorically going by news source where they are factually incorrect and post it anywhere you can by ad space.

Unfortunately, we'd never hear that message outside of our own niche, b/c no one will sell NRA ad space in the liberally dominated media hippodrome.

That's our real issue as responsible gun owners-no one will ever hear our cry for mutual respect.

[Tamara]

Gosh, I've never seen that photo before...

...unless you count the eleventy dozen times it's showed up in my email in-box in the past 24 hours.

It's cute but pointless. Are you really suggesting we give Miss Cyndi-with-a-heart-over-the-"i", first grade teacher with a B.A. in Ed from State U., an M1 carbine?

[NickA]

So I offered here a solution that she might want to proffer to said politicians:

We have sex ed.

We have drug/alcohol ed.

We have driver's ed.

Why don't we have gun ed, since that's guaranteed buy the constitution?

She like that idea and I like what Bill said about the NRA taking a breather and collecting a big head of steam and then blowing out the facts AFTER they can get all of the facts from the Newtown shooting. Categorically going by news source where they are factually incorrect and post it anywhere you can by ad space.

+1000, and add fire safety to that list. Something as simple as NRA's Eddie Eagle program, taught to all school children, would do wonders to reduce accidental gun deaths and teach kids that guns are serious business. But no, that would require actually doing something to protect our children.