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Thread: Are we making a rational argument?

  1. #1
    New Member BLR's Avatar
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    Are we making a rational argument?

    Are we/NRA/SAF/etc. making an effective argument that evil uses guns for evil, and good uses guns for good? We have logic, reason, and evidence on our side. Why are we convincing more people?

    Here in Dayton, just recently, a man was beaten to death with a hammer. A 5 year old girl was rapped. A father pimped and raped several of his sons.

    How many children die each year because mom or dad was texting while driving? I'd venture to say it was more than 20.

    I really think, as a gun community, our presentation needs revamping.
    Last edited by LittleLebowski; 12-18-2012 at 08:11 AM.

  2. #2
    The problem is, it has nothing to do with logic or even saving lives. The extreme left doesn't want gun control, they want control. There is literally nothing in the entire universe that could be said or happen that will change their mind. They want 100% control over the populous in any situation, no matter what & removing guns is the only way to achieve it.

  3. #3
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Riehl View Post
    Are we/NRA/SAF/etc. making an effective argument that evil uses guns for evil, and good uses guns for good? We have logic, reason, and evidence on our side. Why are we convincing more people?
    Are you asking why logic and reason aren't convincing more people?

    Well, ask yourself a question: How many people do you interact with on a daily basis that are rational creatures through and through?

    Human beings, no matter how intelligent they may be individually, are strongly steered towards irrational behavior and ideas, especially if someone is shouting them loud enough. Mob mentality is always bubbling below the surface and in times of high emotion it's very easy to tap into.

    What isn't easy is making a calm, rational argument when there are a bunch of rabble-rousers trying to start a riot using megaphones and slogans. Our politics today is not defined by reason, but by mobbists looking to spread their own personal gospel, consequences be damned. That their policy proposals and ideas wouldn't actually have accomplished anything relevant in the incident they're screaming about is immaterial. It's not about the incident...it's about manipulating a moral revulsion at the murder of children (just as long as we're not talking about unborn children, because killing those children is a public service) into a push to enact their own personal morality as law of the land.

    When you see how the Islamic extremists operate and you look at how progressives operate you see eerie similarities.

    The gun control argument being pushed now has nothing to do with the specifics of what happened in CT. It's entirely about the moral revulsion the gun controllers have at the very thought that you or I could purchase weapons they don't think we should have. With Taliban-like resoluteness they seek to remove the options they disapprove of from the menu of life.

    I really think, as a gun community, our presentation needs revamping.
    I don't think there's an effective way to appeal to the child-like mind that the mobbists are going after. I mean, sure...we could try telling outright lies like the other side, but unlike the other side we cannot depend on the national media to ignore our lies and promote them as truth.

    The gun control "conversation" that's happening right now, as with so many other issues, is yet another manifestation of repeating a lie as loudly and frequently as possible in an effort to make it true. Lies turned into slogans and screamed through megaphones are very effective.

    Reason and logic aren't good for sloganeering and shouting.

    The notion being thrown about in the media right now is a ban on "assault weapons"...this despite the fact that we had one in place for 10 years and we had more school shootings after its passage than before. They are literally arguing for a policy that has been a demonstrated failure within recent memory.

    ...because it's not about stopping school shootings. For them, it's an article of faith that the ability to buy a gun they disagree with is evil and it must be stopped. Period. This is about "progressives" making their moral standard the law of the land based entirely in their faith in their own moral and intellectual superiority. Pesky notions about actual data won't interfere with their deep conviction that your freedom is what's really wrong with this country.
    Last edited by TCinVA; 12-18-2012 at 08:18 AM.

  4. #4
    New Member BLR's Avatar
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    I suspect you're right, but it's not a very satisfying answer.

    ETA: Since LL edited my first post, I'm going to blame the obvious spelling/grammar mistakes on him.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Riehl View Post
    I suspect you're right, but it's not a very satisfying answer.

    ETA: Since LL edited my first post, I'm going to blame the obvious spelling/grammar mistakes on him.
    I only got the obvious one ("rapped"). I blame your woeful education for your grammatical failings
    #RESIST

  6. #6
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Riehl View Post
    I suspect you're right, but it's not a very satisfying answer.
    Nope.

    ...but that's the thing about being an adult: The realization that frequently there is no satisfying answer. There is no satisfying answer to the problems of poverty or crime. The simple truth is that some people just want to hurt others. People get themselves twisted into knots over the stated ideation of murderers as if addressing whatever grievances they claim will solve the problem of their violence. They do this as if a man who made the decision that murdering a bunch of innocent children was an appropriate response to whatever gripe he had was somehow salvageable as a human being, neglecting the core realization that somebody who has decided to gun down kindergartners was going there regardless of his "reasons".

    It's nonsense.

    Nevertheless, a significant chunk of our nation holds up this incident like a child holding up a hopelessly broken toy with tears coming down their little cheeks expecting daddy to "fix it!" There are plenty of politicians willing to tell soothing lies in return for the power to shape society in their image.

  7. #7
    New Member BLR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    I only got the obvious one ("rapped"). I blame your woeful education for your grammatical failings
    That doesn't sound like me. I'm pretty sure it was butchered by you.

    Are there pro-gun rallies?

  8. #8
    New Member BLR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    They do this as if a man who made the decision that murdering a bunch of innocent children was an appropriate response to whatever gripe he had was somehow salvageable as a human being, neglecting the core realization that somebody who has decided to gun down kindergartners was going there regardless of his "reasons".
    I'm using this.

    And I think there might be something to it. There are two gun control advocates: one being a control driven elite, the other being a fear driven "low information" crowd. How do we address the latter? The former is an entirely different group that is outside the discussion here.

    The latter crowd, however childlike in nature they are, might just be looking for something to blame other than the man because admitting it was the man means several things. One that evil exists. Two that we will need to actually grow up and take responsibility for our actions, safety, and future. And for many, that's a scary thought.

  9. #9
    Over the past 24 hrs, I've gotten wide eyes when I explain that:

    - this is a mental health issue

    - Columbine happened during an AWB

    -this is NOT the worst school tragedy in the US (Bath bombing)

    - AR15s are not "new technology"


    Honestly, I think the "I am Adam Lanza's mother" article does more for the now ongoing knee jerk reactions than any pro gun argument we can offer. Simply because the other side does not care. Either it be control (Bloomberg) or "won't someone please think of the children!"


    Disclaimer: I am a father who loves his children and this recent incident reaffirmed my decision to run TO the sound of violence unless I need to safeguard my own family first.
    #RESIST

  10. #10
    Site Supporter Tamara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Riehl View Post
    Are we/NRA/SAF/etc. making an effective argument that evil uses guns for evil, and good uses guns for good? We have logic, reason, and evidence on our side. Why are we convincing more people?

    Here in Dayton, just recently, a man was beaten to death with a hammer. A 5 year old girl was rapped. A father pimped and raped several of his sons.

    How many children die each year because mom or dad was texting while driving? I'd venture to say it was more than 20.

    I really think, as a gun community, our presentation needs revamping.
    Our presentation was stomping them into a mudhole in the popular culture, in the courts, in the legislatures, and one high profile shooting and my team is suddenly ready to fold like a cheap newspaper? For Vishnu's sake, nut up, man!
    Books. Bikes. Boomsticks.

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