Pump action: Designs with function issues

[314159]

Recently watched a video of an exhibition shooter type who covers shotgunning. In this video he had multiple bobbles of one sort or another with working the action of some old and new 870s. Now, I can only assume he's pretty competent with a shotgun in general but it really was pretty striking the failures shown. Kudos to him for not just editing that out.

Question: Are some pump actions just more likely to make your job harder on reliably operating the gun?

I first experienced issues with an Ithaca 37 Deerslayer back in the dark ages and there was no one to teach me the right or wrong way to work it. I've always had a fairly dim opinion of the 37 since (rightly or wrongly, I don't know).

So, do our SMEs have an opinion if there are pump designs that are engineered so that they reduce the problem of improperly working the action?

I want to hypothesize that an action with a little more over travel to the rear might mitigate ejection issues but I can also imagine the shortest possible stroke aft and foreward might be the way to go. Experiences anyone?

[Navin Johnson]

NOT an SME

My experience is 870s from late 70s and early 80s and a Mossy 500 from 10 years ago

Unless things have changed in the last decade current Rems and Mossys are junk (and to be fair most put junk ammo through them that sticks and runs like shit)

Short stroking is the main problem with a pump (and no one short strokes untill they do....) and also getting back on target while pumping

Pumps are cool cause movies where actors walk around slowly working the action as the fear of gawd is put into bad guys by the sound of the action and a payload that looks like a hit from a linebacker.

If one buys a pump and sends it out to be made right then you're in A300 range or more $$ I have two 1301s and an A300 in the fam.

The huge downside is that semi shotguns are the most complicated long gun to run (but they are far more reliable than pumps)

I will never own a pump again for other than for f-ing around or for special rounds (Not SD or Hunting)

If a 70 yo needs a HD gun and is not current but had shotties when younger it is likely a good solution

[gato naranja]

If a 70 yo needs a HD gun and is not current but had shotties when younger it is likely a good solution

HEY! I resemble that!
But seriously, it is a factor that deserves consideration. I did finally decide that at my age, I need to learn a whole new manual of arms (for a scattergun I may not ever use) like I need another sphincter.

Anyway...

Pumps have been problematic at least as far back as the Spencer, all of them relying on that most erratic and unreliable of components, the human operator. Beyond that, the remaining "popular" ones became that way because they were actually good designs in the first place. There was a time in living memory when a Remington 870 was considered so reliable that some people who had been around the block wondered whether anything could top it. Even Mossberg 500's - which I personally dislike for both valid and oblique reasons - didn't start becoming the regional Yokel's Delight because it was inherently problematic.

QC - firearms AND ammunition - is another can of worms. This old cat can yell at clouds about QC all day, but it is what it is.

[RevolverRob]

The answer is: Shorter stock and running a pump like it owes you money. Shorter stock means you have more off hand leverage to work the pump. Working it over like it owes you money, means you hammer it back and forth. If the action is lubed, it can take it.

The engineering solution to a pump action is a semi-auto or break action gun.

[1slow]

For 2 shots a double works well.

A break action shotgun or double rifle requires a very different technique to quickly reload.
CAS shooters and old school African professional hunters figured it out.

[Trooper224]

I agree with the OP on the current level of Remington and Mossberg suck, I can't agree on his estimation of the pump action.

The main deterrence to pump reliability is the same one I've seen with lever actions, bolt actions and any other manually operated design: shooter timidity. It's not made of hand-blown glass. You have to work it like a ten dollar whore and drive it like you stole it.

As for semi-autos being more reliable than pumps? That is simply contrary to my life experience.

[RevolverRob]

For 2 shots a double works well.

A break action shotgun or double rifle requires a very different technique to quickly reload.
CAS shooters and old school African professional hunters figured it out.

There is a legitimate need for a 18-21" barreled double that EJECTS in the shotgun world.

Yes, you can buck the shells out of a double with extractors, but ejectors would be superior. We note that most dangerous game express rifles have ejectors, not extractors, because it makes a difference.

That said, if someone made a double ejector with a 16" barrel in say, .45-70, that'd work too.

[willie]

Folks who take up a pump gun after shooting auto's and doubles tend to "soft handle" them. In the case of an 870, shooting once and then gently pumping will leave the empty "halfway" in the chamber. That's ok at a skeet range or for the person not wishing to bend over to pick up an empty. Let's compare an 870 to an 1100. The action of both are about the same. Rest assured the gas operated 1100 is slamming everything rearward with more force than the guy operating an 870. Now back to shooting an 870 once and barely pumping it to get the empty. That is a terrible habit.

I used to tinker with pump guns. I could fix Mossbergs by polishing the chamber and getting the company to send new shell latches. Dan Lehr is a factory trained 870 guy who also was a Mossberg armorer. He's the most knowledge pump shogun person that I know. He had professional training on other brands too.

[1slow]

There is a legitimate need for a 18-21" barreled double that EJECTS in the shotgun world.

Yes, you can buck the shells out of a double with extractors, but ejectors would be superior. We note that most dangerous game express rifles have ejectors, not extractors, because it makes a difference.

That said, if someone made a double ejector with a 16" barrel in say, .45-70, that'd work too.

Agreed on the ejectors !

Also the rifles have round nose bullets , this aids loading

[TCinVA]

Recently watched a video of an exhibition shooter type who covers shotgunning. In this video he had multiple bobbles of one sort or another with working the action of some old and new 870s. Now, I can only assume he's pretty competent with a shotgun in general but it really was pretty striking the failures shown. Kudos to him for not just editing that out.

Peradventure, do you have a link to the video?

Question: Are some pump actions just more likely to make your job harder on reliably operating the gun?

Sure. Some guns are easier to run than others.

So, do our SMEs have an opinion if there are pump designs that are engineered so that they reduce the problem of improperly working the action?

I wouldn't say that engineering is the issue so much as execution.

I have a marked preference for the Remington 870 as a pump gun option over the Mossberg 500/590 series because I grew up using the 870. In particular, I grew up using 870 Wingmasters which were in rough cosmetic shape but their actions ran smooth as butter. The Mossbergs don't run quite as smooth as a properly built 870.

It's that "properly built" element that's the problem.

The 870 is built differently depending on the model. The Wingmaster and Police shotguns have their receivers and major parts put into a vibra-hone to polish all the surfaces involved. If you take a properly made Wingmaster and have it coated with a modern finish that has some built-in lubricity like Wilson's Armor-Tuff, it ends up slicker than owl snot. Then if you add on a Surefire forend to that gun, you can basically just get the forend moving rearwards and it's smooth and heavy enough to practically carry itself fully to the rear assuming you got it moving with some elbow grease. I have a gun exactly like that and it's a gun I can shoot with sub 1/4 second splits.

My main teaching gun is an Express model tarted up with a lot of work. The Express models from the late 90's on didn't get the extra time of hand and vibra-hone polishing to make them less expensive, which means they exhibit a rougher action. Best I can do on my teaching gun which is finished with Cerakote and has a bunch of rounds through it is about 1/3 of a second splits.

While those splits aren't terribly relevant to the real world use of the gun, it does give me an idea of which one is most likely to end up being short stroked if someone tries to go at maximum speed.

But the major culprit is that whole "tries to go at maximum speed" thing. If someone is trying to shoot as fast as they can, they usually end up shooting as fast as they can't and munge the operation of the gun. Usually that manifests in failing to run the action fully to the rear before closing it again. They may run it back far enough to eject the spent shell but not far enough to move the shell stops aside allowing the next shell on the lifter. Adding more length to the stroke of the pump won't really help that. There's already more travel to the rear than needed just for ejection to allow the shell stops to work. The shell in the magazine doesn't get released on a pump gun until the very last bit of travel in the pump.

This is why we spend time in class getting people to run the action hard, and until it hits the stops in both directions. If you run the pump like it owes you money, working the action like you hate it generally speaking you don't have problems.

The other major contributor is people running guns that don't fit them properly. I would argue that this is actually the root cause of most short-stroke events. If you put someone on a typically stocked pump gun and they're not over 6'2" tall, they're usually stretched out pretty far on the gun. This means they are trying to run the gun with their arm, not their torso. They can't be as powerful on the gun because they're basically standing beside it, not behind it and they're only able to really use their arms not their lats and back muscles to power the pump.

I teach basic shotgun classes and performance shotgun classes. Short stroking the pump is a rare phenomenon precisely because we try to deal with fit issues by putting them on one of our guns if at all possible and we teach them to run that pump hard.

If someone is trying to go for maximum possible performance (like an exhibition shooter might be) then small details about the exact specimen in hand will most definitely make a difference. The gun has to be built right and likely is one that's nicely broken in to allow running at maximum speed. Somebody like Tom Knapp or Herb Parsons would be able to pick one up, run the action a few times, and tell whether or not they can set records with it:



Short of that, though, as long as there's nothing wrong with the action it should work just fine for defensive use if run properly.