Manipulation of Manual Safeties

[Tensaw]

So the new Staccato HD P4 has my attention. Because I carry AIWB almost all the time, the manual safety is pretty attractive from the standpoint of re-holstering. That said, my background for the last 25 years has been plastic, striker-fired pistols - mostly Glocks, but most recently the PDP and P365 (no MS).

So what are the best practices when it comes to taking the pistol off safe? Another way to ask this might be, do we just always want to thumb down the safety as the pistol clears the holster and then rely on the Big Three/Four safety rules from there? But then what about finding oneself in a scenario where we want the pistol out, but we are unsure as to what we are in the middle of? Allow me to relate a quick story.

A good friend of mine came home one night to find the entry door to his residence inside his previously closed garage slightly ajar. He proceeded inside the house with his J-frame (IIRC) drawn. He just made it through that door when his young daughter jumped out into the hallway "to scare him". Thankfully, he did not discharge the revolver. He and his wife had been on the phone with her as they approached the house and she had done a great job of convincing them that she was over at a friend's house - to set up the surprise. (For purposes of this discussion, let's not get into the decision to "clear the house", please.)

It seems to me that maybe having an external safety still engaged would have been welcome during that incident - along with a straight trigger finger and good muzzle discipline. But I don't know what I don't know. I can also make an argument that the manual safety should not be relied on and is best used as a layer of protection when reholstering (or fighting to retain the pistol). Does this maybe depend on how the trigger is set up? So you might use a manual safety differently across a Staccato versus a P365? Is it even possible to boil this down to a solid solution, or are we going to end up at, "It depends..."?

[Navin Johnson]

So why did friend not call popo if he was convinced daughter was not home? (relevant due to being an example of needing a safety or not). Would he/you clear the house with safety on or off?

A safety is irrelevant if it is off. There needs to be other safety protocols.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

That sounds like the Louisana case (IIRC) where a dad and mom came home.

https://www.nytimes.com/1994/11/10/u...r-s-guilt.html

That practical joke -- hiding in a closet to surprise Mr. Crabtree -- is one Matilda had often pulled, but always during the day, said the father of her best friend and neighbor, Stacy Redding. On Saturday night, the two girls decided to try it again, according to authorities here, and to Stacy's father, Steve Redding. Mr. Crabtree arrived home about 1 A.M., after a night of visiting friends with his wife.

The house was dark, and the Crabtrees thought that their daughter and Stacy were staying at the Reddings, as previously arranged. But Mr. Crabtree heard a noise in the back of the one-story house, said Maj. Mike Worley of the Ouachita Parish Sheriff's Office.

Mr. Crabtree picked up a .357-caliber pistol he kept loaded, and went into his daughter's bedroom. The door of the darkened closet opened, Matilda sprang out shouting "Boo," and her father shot her in the neck at very close range, Major Worley said. She died about 12 hours later at a hospital here, and was buried on Tuesday in nearby Winnsboro, after a service attended by students from West Monroe High School, where Matilda was a freshman.

IIRC - I saw the dad interviewed later on a special about gun usage and he was destroyed. IIRC, the daughter said: Daddy I love you - in his arms after being shot.

So - as said, no one who has a bit of training goes to clear a house by him or herself unless it is an extreme, rescue someone emergency. That being said - if you go into a situation where you expect to use lethal force, do you keep the safety on until you identify the target? Is perhaps finger off the trigger a better training option? Next, while not mentioned, the difference in trigger pull between a DA revolver and a striker or SA won't matter in a startle response, the human factors folks have tested this.

Bottom line, the variance in this one isn't the safety on the gun as pointed out.

PS - I know guys who will clear by themselves for 'noise' and wander around outside or in the house. Being Texans, they thought is was not manly to call the law or hunker down. Interestingly, in some FOF, the newbies who cleared got 'killed' or knocked about. Those who hunkered down won the day.

I think I have the correct case, it's an old memory.

[YVK]

https://youtu.be/Ue1l1qz-U4M?feature=shared

This is a long video that is mostly about building a grip [I don't agree with all of that] but it covers manual safety disengagement. Start at about 4 min mark. The short of it is that safety comes off only when a gun goes out on the target. Safety is back on when gun is off the target.


I assume that this is what you're asking about?

[breakingtime91]

For a manual safety to be ran proficiently it has to be subconscious part of the process to shoot. So I am not sure if a manual safety will save someone from a mental decision to shoot. This is why something like a hard low ready while clearing is my preferred method. I’m not a cop chasing a criminal into dark spaces, I’m a dad checking a sound at night in a house with children.


*this is why I’m switching to a Fanny pack set up with a pistol in it for home defense. Gives me an extra step of drawing the gun when checking out a sound.

[Joe in PNG]

As cool as I think the BHP Spring Solutions SFS is, one big problem is that it's kinda hard to get back on safe easy. You have to push the hammer forward to safe it, and that's a bit of an odd move.
And sadly, the traditional BHP hammer tends to jab me jelly rolls, so traditional cocked & locked doesn't really work comfortably there, either.

On my Colt 1911, I swapped to a Wilson extended safety because I wanted it to be as easy to put on safe as it was to take off. The factory safety didn't do it as well.

[Rex G]

With a 1911, I keep it on-safe, unless/until I have the muzzle orienting itself on a target. I will then on-safe the weapon when it comes off-target. Notably, I am on-safe when in any type/interpretation of low ready, unless I am pointing at a real, live, articulable threat, and have simply lowered my muzzle in order to better see his hands. I actually did use 1911 duty pistols for a total of six to seven years, if I recall correctly, so, did point them at bad guys, multiple times. My first handgun purchase, at age 21, was a 1911, so, a 1911 thumb safety has always been my brain’s concept of a “proper” safety device.

If I start moving my feet, I will on-safe, unless I am literally shooting-while-moving. (In the real world, I do not feel comfortable shooting while moving, so, have only done it very rarely, during training.)

P365? Personally*, I will not use a P365 with a safety lever, because it does not fit the natural movement path of my thumb. Plus, I have a personal quirk of tending to forget to use the safety lever, when handling pistols other than 1911 pistols. I transitioned from a Colt Commander to a SIG P220 in 1991, and ever since then, as soon as my hand detects any pistol grip other than a traditional-pattern 1911, my thumb “thinks” SIG, and disregards “finding” any thumb safeties. Yet, when I would pick up or draw a 1911, my thumb would find the safety, without fail. All was well and good, until I decided to try adopting the Browning Hi Power, which my thumb “thought” was a SIG. Well, a P365 actually is a SIG, and feels like a SIG. I used SIGs as duty pistols for a total of 15 years.

*I am not telling anyone else what they should do.

[Utm]

Opinions will vary on this. Some will say treat it like a rifle and when the decision to shoot has been made safety comes off. I personally don't run it that way and the safety is coming off when I break the holster. My personal logic is that the safety is to prevent an ND while reholstering not meant to be ran like an AR safety.

[Tensaw]

https://youtu.be/Ue1l1qz-U4M?feature=shared

This is a long video that is mostly about building a grip [I don't agree with all of that] but it covers manual safety disengagement. Start at about 4 min mark. The short of it is that safety comes off only when a gun goes out on the target. Safety is back on when gun is off the target.


I assume that this is what you're asking about?

Yup. So, as I was just about asleep last night, the solution popped into my brain. Safety comes off as the finger goes to the trigger; and then safety goes on when finger comes off the trigger. Doh! Not sure why I wasn't able to get there before... I guess years of doing pistol things with no safety had me in vapor lock, but the solution is pretty obvious... eventually.

[Tensaw]

Opinions will vary on this. Some will say treat it like a rifle and when the decision to shoot has been made safety comes off. I personally don't run it that way and the safety is coming off when I break the holster. My personal logic is that the safety is to prevent an ND while reholstering not meant to be ran like an AR safety.

Well, glad to hear you say that opinions will vary - makes me feel a little less dumb. And when I was initially mulling this, I was thinking of treating the pistol like the AR/shotgun - and as I was drifting off to sleep I thought of the fact that, sitting in a duck/deer blind, you don't sit there with the safety off; the applicable phalange rests on or near the safety and the safety comes off as the gun is presented to the target. (But then there have been the three decades of not having any safety on my pistols at all and I kind of locked up when trying to figure out at what moment would the safety come off - but for me, I think "finger going to trigger" will work best.)