RFI: SPR Scope Illumination

[stomridertx]

Somewhat "Lightweight Precision" is pretty accurate for this. It's a BCM BFH midlength 16" cold hammer forged barrel upper that was originally bought for general purpose, but I later discovered that I had won the barrel lottery and it shot very well. I bought the Razor 1-6 and discovered it shoots 62 gr Speer Gold dots sub MOA and 55 gr FMJ rounds under 2 inches. For close up defensive purposes, I have a lightweight 14.5 build with a primary red dot.
The 16" BCM's real role (aside from any SHTF fantasy) is best described as being my favorite AR. The ranges I get to shoot at limit me to 500 yards, but having higher powered scopes on other guns has taught me that I really enjoy getting behind glass, figuring out range, and ringing steel. I geek out about optics quite a bit. I really like 10x power, but I'm fairly sure I don't want 10x with a 2.4 mm exit pupil like the 1-10 LPVOs have. The IPVO (C_Does new term for these) is really calling out to me, but I don't have an urgent need.

[ECK]

Keeping from steering toward a specific product (I'll bet it gets guessed correctly in short order), there is now a 2.5-10x42 scope from a trusted company (mostly) that weighs the same as my Razor 1-6, probably has same or better glass quality, has a slightly improved reticle (still not ideal), and isn't much longer in length. It has my required low-profile turrets, capped windage, comes in both illuminated and non-illuminated versions, and is well reviewed by trusted sources. Because I have been running an offset dot for quite a while and like it, every logical avenue in my brain tells me I should switch to that optic and replace the Razor 1-6. My previous held belief that a daylight bright LPVO is the pinnacle of scoped carbine performance is fading away. The case for at least the minimum reticle illumination tech has been well established, and there's no significant weight penalty for that. I'm really trying to slow down on expensive optic purchasing, so may have to sell the Razor to make this change and there's no going back once it's done. I appreciate the answers here, keep them coming.

Sounds like the Leupold Mk4HD 2.5-10x42.

I looked at that one, overall I’m fairly impressed with the Mk4 line up. I had a Mk5HD 5-25x for a little bit, nice scope, good glass, loved the turrets. However it was the PR2 reticle that turned me off. I hold a lot instead of dialing, and while I was semi-ok with the 1/4 mil reticle, the small gaps they used as subtensions at 1/4 and 3/4 mil were too hard for me to see quickly. I traded it for a scope with a 0.2 mil SCR2 reticle and it was like coming home to my happy place.

While I like the more compact form factor of the 2-10x MVPOs, I’m currently leaning towards a 3 or 4-18x scope for my mid-range AR. Last time I was at the range I experimented running my scope at 10x, and while I was able to get hits out to 650 yds (furthest distance that range goes out to) at 10X it was too hard to spot my hits/misses with the puny 75 grain .223 bullets in order to make corrections. At 550 and 650 I pretty much had to rely on the sound of the impact on steel but had a hard time seeing the hits even on freshly painted plates. I normally run my PRS and NRLH rifles around 14-16x magnification, so that’s why I’m leaning towards a scope that goes up to 18x.

[stomridertx]

Sounds like the Leupold Mk4HD 2.5-10x42.

I looked at that one, overall I’m fairly impressed with the Mk4 line up. I had a Mk5HD 5-25x for a little bit, nice scope, good glass, loved the turrets. However it was the PR2 reticle that turned me off. I hold a lot instead of dialing, and while I was semi-ok with the 1/4 mil reticle, the small gaps they used as subtensions at 1/4 and 3/4 mil were too hard for me to see quickly. I traded it for a scope with a 0.2 mil SCR2 reticle and it was like coming home to my happy place.

While I like the more compact form factor of the 2-10x MVPOs, I’m currently leaning towards a 3 or 4-18x scope for my mid-range AR. Last time I was at the range I experimented running my scope at 10x, and while I was able to get hits out to 650 yds (furthest distance that range goes out to) at 10X it was too hard to spot my hits/misses with the puny 75 grain .223 bullets in order to make corrections. At 550 and 650 I pretty much had to rely on the sound of the impact on steel but had a hard time seeing the hits even on freshly painted plates. I normally run my PRS and NRLH rifles around 14-16x magnification, so that’s why I’m leaning towards a scope that goes up to 18x.

I ran the Burris XTR3i 3.3-18x50 for a while on the rifle I'm talking about. I loved the glass and the SCR2 reticle, but hated the death-metal inspired knurling on the controls. I was putting up with that, but realized I just didn't like a 30 oz optic on a 16" AR. It was just not a good fit, and I found myself grabbing the 14.5 carbine I put the Razor on more. I sold it, moved the Razor back and put a red dot on the smaller gun. The Mark 4HD 2.5-10 is appealing because its weight is the same as a high end LPVO. The other tempting scope is the Athon Helos Gen 2 2-12x42, but it's 25 oz and I just don't want to go heavier. The Mark 4HD is the only game in town at this weight category, and it checks every box except a tree reticle. I can get along with a good mil reticle without the tree as that's what I have with the Athlon Midas Tac 4-16x44 on my .308 bolt gun. C_Does did a great rundown on this category of optics and the Mark 4HD did surprisingly well and may have won me over.
I'm really putting a lot of thought into this because there's no more $1000 scope spending this year, so the Razor will have to get sold if I want to go this route.

[ECK]

I like Burris, or at least the XTR Pro. But it is a chonky boy, weighing in around 35 oz. The knurling on the turrets is pretty mild compared to the XTRIII’s. The Pro checked a lot of boxes for me when I was scope-shopping for PRS/NRL rifles, which is probably why I ended up with 3 of them. The easy button for me would be to go with a XTRIII in 3.3-18x but I want to branch out to other brands.

If money was not a factor I’d be looking at the Nightforce ATACR 4-16x42 w/ the MIL-XT reticle. But I don’t really want to spend that much on this rifle until I know how deep I want to get into DMR matches, so the other option is the Bushnell Match Pro ED 3-18x50 w/ the DM2 reticle. My only hang-up is it’s Bushnell -I don’t have any experience with them, but the ED line is getting good reviews in the sub $1K category.

I need to head down to Scheels one of these days and handle some scopes. But I’m in no hurry. Currently doing some load development with that rifle and different powders, and the ol’ 4-14x44 Athlon is getting the job done for now.

[stomridertx]

I did a good ole' pros/cons list and I've talked myself off the ledge and keeping the proven Razor. This announcement from Primary Arms didn't hurt that decision:

I'd like to continue to hear opinions on illumination as it's been a great source of information.

[stomridertx]

I like Burris, or at least the XTR Pro. But it is a chonky boy, weighing in around 35 oz. The knurling on the turrets is pretty mild compared to the XTRIII’s. The Pro checked a lot of boxes for me when I was scope-shopping for PRS/NRL rifles, which is probably why I ended up with 3 of them. The easy button for me would be to go with a XTRIII in 3.3-18x but I want to branch out to other brands.

If money was not a factor I’d be looking at the Nightforce ATACR 4-16x42 w/ the MIL-XT reticle. But I don’t really want to spend that much on this rifle until I know how deep I want to get into DMR matches, so the other option is the Bushnell Match Pro ED 3-18x50 w/ the DM2 reticle. My only hang-up is it’s Bushnell -I don’t have any experience with them, but the ED line is getting good reviews in the sub $1K category.

I need to head down to Scheels one of these days and handle some scopes. But I’m in no hurry. Currently doing some load development with that rifle and different powders, and the ol’ 4-14x44 Athlon is getting the job done for now.

Off topic, what is your overall opinion of that Athlon Talos 4-14x44? I've thought about grabbing one of those just to put on a return to zero mount for testing accuracy of red dot guns or just having a spare. They are so inexpensive but have all those features we like.

[littlejerry]

I did a good ole' pros/cons list and I've talked myself off the ledge and keeping the proven Razor. This announcement from Primary Arms didn't hurt that decision:

I'd like to continue to hear opinions on illumination as it's been a great source of information.

You and I are in a similar place right now.

I have 2 rifles:
16" AR with NXS 2.5-10x32 Mil Dot, piggyback MRDS
12.5" AR with PLX-C 1-8, Griffin Mil, piggyback MRDS

The goal of the 12.5 was to have a handy rifle with a can on the end.

I am not sold on the PLX. It's a nice scope, but it isn't as easy to use up close as a red dot or SFP fiber illuminated scope (Razor, Credo, Delta). It isn't as distance capable as my 2.5-10.

I already have the dot on top and I'm used to using it with my 16. I may get a Mk4HD 2.5-10 to replace the PLX-C.

[ECK]

Off topic, what is your overall opinion of that Athlon Talos 4-14x44? I've thought about grabbing one of those just to put on a return to zero mount for testing accuracy of red dot guns or just having a spare. They are so inexpensive but have all those features we like.

It’s an OK FFP scope, functional but nothing to really write home about tho. The reticle lines are a little thicker than I would like, the magnification ring is stiff (and I doubt anybody makes a SwitchView ring for it), the lack of zero is a PITA, and only 5 mils per turret rotation. But it tracks fine, is repeatable, glass is OK, and hasn’t lost zero since I put it on the rifle about 5-6 years ago. I think it’s biggest redeeming quality is the price.

[stomridertx]

You and I are in a similar place right now.

I have 2 rifles:
16" AR with NXS 2.5-10x32 Mil Dot, piggyback MRDS
12.5" AR with PLX-C 1-8, Griffin Mil, piggyback MRDS

The goal of the 12.5 was to have a handy rifle with a can on the end.

I am not sold on the PLX. It's a nice scope, but it isn't as easy to use up close as a red dot or SFP fiber illuminated scope (Razor, Credo, Delta). It isn't as distance capable as my 2.5-10.

I already have the dot on top and I'm used to using it with my 16. I may get a Mk4HD 2.5-10 to replace the PLX-C.

I think what Leupold has done with the Mark4HD is modernize the NXS 2.5-10 which used to stand alone. I just wish whoever is in charge of reticle selection there would wake up and read the room. Maybe we should all send him postcards with Christmas trees for subliminal influence.
When I pick up the rifle and look through the Razor, my mind jumps to "I don't want to get rid of this". I think the upcoming PA autolive battery cap is a serious refresh of this optic, I would run the illuminated dot outside all the time if I knew it would shut off when still. It makes the super bright daylight dot even more appealing because I leave it off a lot knowing I'll run a bunch of the battery down in a range session. It's the missing element to an already best in class LPVO. Vortex should get in talks with PA to just include it.
The Mark4HD is living rent free in my head, but it doesn't give me enough to go through the hassle of making the switch. I think to scratch this itch I will delay gratification and get a Ruger SFAR in a year or two to host one (I already stock .308 and don't want to introduce another caliber). By then, Vortex or Athlon may have an answer to this optic.
Relevant to the discussion, heres another PA announcement. It's an SLx though and I like to float in a higher tier than that on scopes that get a lot of use.

[Clusterfrack]

I think what Leupold has done with the Mark4HD is modernize the NXS 2.5-10 which used to stand alone. I just wish whoever is in charge of reticle selection there would wake up and read the room. Maybe we should all send him postcards with Christmas trees for subliminal influence.

I like the Mk4 2.5-10 FFP TMR. It's what Nightforce should have released a long time ago. The PA 2-10 SFP scope doesn't interest me at all. The FFP PLxC 2.5-20 without the distracting tree reticle looks good.