RFI: SPR Scope Illumination

[stomridertx]

I really want to lean on the wealth of experience here to help with a thought experiment. I'm not going to ask about a specific scope model, but more about the general concept of a SPR/crossover scope for a scoped AR15 platform in 5.56. Magnification range would be the 2-10 or 3-18 type. Parameters are that the setup will have an offset or top mounted red dot. The intent of the rifle is to take full advantage of the popular 77 grain match ammo.
Given the above, let's say you find the perfect scope that comes in both non-illuminated and illuminated reticle options. How important is the reticle illumination? For those with a lot of experience behind a rifle like this, how often do you use the illuminated reticle? Do you deem it necessary? Would you spend the large amount needed to bump up to a fiber wire or diffractive daylight bright reticle? Keep in mind that there will be a secondary red dot as a mandatory addition. Fiber wire in particular has the tradeoff of a very simple reticle and no Christmas trees in sight.
Fundamentally, are there shots in the dark you need to take with the scope you can't take with the secondary dot? Do you come across dark background targets where you actually reach for the illumination knob?

[ECK]

I have several scopes that come with an illuminated reticle and hardly ever use the illumination. The sole exception is a Razor GII 1-6x that has the center dot illuminated so on 1x it kinda works like a red dot.

I think the only time I would use the illumination is if I was hunting and it was in low-light conditions.

[littlejerry]

I have an NXS 2.5-10 with piggy back dot on my 16" rifle.

Only time I use illumination is before sunrise while hunting.

For gun games it's never been useful, but it's a SFP scope with crappy illumination.

The red dot on top works for games and low light short range.

[shane45]

Well, I think the use case would dictate? For example, I like illum because I want to be able to take a shot in low light conditions glassing into a brushy area. On some scopes I have had my reticle vanish in this scenario without illum. Also, depending on mag and FFP or SFP, if mag is low on a ffp the ret can be very hard to see in many circumstances to the point that I consider some optics a red dot at say 1x.

[Clusterfrack]

I absolutely require an illuminated reticle on any precision rifle. I don't use it often, but as already pointed out it solves some wicked lighting/background/target combinations. I still remember one match where there was a target hidden deep in the woods that was engaged from a sunny spot. No one could see their reticles when they were looking at the target--until they activated illumination.

I don't run a dot on my DMR/SPR, just a 1-10 Razor G3, so daylight bright illum is a must.

[stomridertx]

I absolutely require an illuminated reticle on any precision rifle. I don't use it often, but as already pointed out it solves some wicked lighting/background/target combinations. I still remember one match where there was a target hidden deep in the woods that was engaged from a sunny spot. No one could see their reticles when they were looking at the target--until they activated illumination.

I don't run a dot on my DMR/SPR, just a 1-10 Razor G3, so daylight bright illum is a must.

This is outstanding information. If you did run a secondary dot on your SPR, would you still demand daylight bright, or would you consider the common illumination found on scopes that is barely daylight visible sufficient?

[Clusterfrack]

This is outstanding information. If you did run a secondary dot on your SPR, would you still demand daylight bright, or would you consider the common illumination found on scopes that is barely daylight visible sufficient?

Good question. I tried an offset dot and really didn’t like it. Having a different index on the gun wasn’t worth it for me. But if I liked shooting close and fast with my rifle crooked, yeah I could give up daylight bright in the scope.

[dontshakepandas]

This is outstanding information. If you did run a secondary dot on your SPR, would you still demand daylight bright, or would you consider the common illumination found on scopes that is barely daylight visible sufficient?

I think this really depends on the reticle and magnification range of your optic.

The 1x on the Razor Gen 3 can be pretty tough to use without the illumination since the reticle basically disappears, so without another dot to use for 1x daylight bright would be required for me. On my 4-16 ATACR the illumination doesn't make a huge usability difference in the reticle unless it is low light situations, so daylight bright wouldn't really matter. I do have a top mounted dot to have a 1x option though.

[stomridertx]

Keeping from steering toward a specific product (I'll bet it gets guessed correctly in short order), there is now a 2.5-10x42 scope from a trusted company (mostly) that weighs the same as my Razor 1-6, probably has same or better glass quality, has a slightly improved reticle (still not ideal), and isn't much longer in length. It has my required low-profile turrets, capped windage, comes in both illuminated and non-illuminated versions, and is well reviewed by trusted sources. Because I have been running an offset dot for quite a while and like it, every logical avenue in my brain tells me I should switch to that optic and replace the Razor 1-6. My previous held belief that a daylight bright LPVO is the pinnacle of scoped carbine performance is fading away. The case for at least the minimum reticle illumination tech has been well established, and there's no significant weight penalty for that. I'm really trying to slow down on expensive optic purchasing, so may have to sell the Razor to make this change and there's no going back once it's done. I appreciate the answers here, keep them coming.

[dontshakepandas]

Keeping from steering toward a specific product (I'll bet it gets guessed correctly in short order), there is now a 2.5-10x42 scope from a trusted company (mostly) that weighs the same as my Razor 1-6, probably has same or better glass quality, has a slightly improved reticle (still not ideal), and isn't much longer in length. It has my required low-profile turrets, capped windage, comes in both illuminated and non-illuminated versions, and is well reviewed by trusted sources. Because I have been running an offset dot for quite a while and like it, every logical avenue in my brain tells me I should switch to that optic and replace the Razor 1-6. My previous held belief that a daylight bright LPVO is the pinnacle of scoped carbine performance is fading away. The case for at least the minimum reticle illumination tech has been well established, and there's no significant weight penalty for that. I'm really trying to slow down on expensive optic purchasing, so may have to sell the Razor to make this change and there's no going back once it's done. I appreciate the answers here, keep them coming.

I would say that really comes down to your intended use for the gun.

I like the Razor 1-6 for a general purpose type rifle. Mine is on a 14.5" BCM ELW where my main focus will be 0-300 yards. I like the illumination and 1x performance for closer engagements. The magnification is mostly for PID, but I have the ability to hit further out occasionally if needed. I still have a top dot to use as a backup and for passive aiming once I buy night vision.

I wouldn't see moving to a precision optic as an upgrade in performance as shifting the purpose to something different. Do you have a precision barrel and are trying to shoot smaller groups or mostly targets further away? If yes, the 2.5-10 probably makes more sense than a 1-6. Is this your only rifle that you want to be able to do a little bit of everything and may actually use it in a defensive situation? I think the Razor still makes more sense.

I have also had my eye on the optic that you are hinting at though, but I'm holding off hope that they will eventually offer better reticles. That would be a really good fit in a "lightweight precision" type gun with something like a 16" Criterion Core barrel. Not that I really need any more rifles.