Martial Arts Training

[will_1400]

Yes, it seems Will_1400 has used BJJ interchangeably with MMA, when it isn't. (Was that a typo or mistake?) BJJ may be a good starting point, but there's no doubt that BJJ will leave you wide open for a variety of strikes.

MMA > BJJ for self defense. How could anyone disagree?

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I think the case for Krav or other "reality fighting" arts comes with the introduction of weapons (usually just weapon defense and not how to employ your weapon - a drawback) and the various 'dirty tricks' that are illegal in the ring but completely ethical in a self defense situation.

However, for me the question is if the lack of 'aliveness' in, say, Krav compared to MMA is worth it. Ultimately, the degree of 'aliveness' will differ from gym to gym, but plenty of Krav classes are full of women there to lose weight (Ironically, these classes may be taught by an overweight woman. I speak from direct experience.) Whatever sparring that is done in those classes will rarely replicate the intensity of a MMA gym with a few amateur fighters keeping people honest. I'm not sure that the fact that the Krav class will introduce a knife defense is enough to recommend it over a MMA gym.

I used BJJ as an example of one of the weaknesses I've observed in MMA. A couple other weaknesses include what appears to be a complete emphasis on one-on-one confrontations against someone in your weight class, a lack of emphasis on being equally skilled as both an orthodox fighter and a southpaw, etc. Don't get me wrong: MMA's great for learning how to be dangerous in a hurry which is a huge advantage over the more classical arts. On the other hand, the one-on-one emphasis and focusing solely on learning how to fight right or left-handed are some issues I've observed at the gym I've been training at lately.

[Leozinho]

I used BJJ as an example of one of the weaknesses I've observed in MMA. A couple other weaknesses include what appears to be a complete emphasis on one-on-one confrontations against someone in your weight class, a lack of emphasis on being equally skilled as both an orthodox fighter and a southpaw, etc. Don't get me wrong: MMA's great for learning how to be dangerous in a hurry which is a huge advantage over the more classical arts. On the other hand, the one-on-one emphasis and focusing solely on learning how to fight right or left-handed are some issues I've observed at the gym I've been training at lately.

Oh, I thought you were saying you weren't a fan of MMA for many situations because, coming from a striking background, you often find you have to restrain yourself from punching your partner during BJJ practice.

I'm not a fan of MMA for many situations. Yes, it's good to know how to grapple, but coming from a striking background, I often find I have to restrain myself from punching my partner during BJJ practice whenever I find openings (which are numerous if it's pure grappling). .

You do realize if it was MMA practice (not BJJ) your partner would be defending against strikes and try not give you those openings?


As far as the argument of "MMA doesn't prepare you for multiple opponents" - I guess I'd have to ask if you are sure that your preferred system actually prepares you to fight a single opponent. I ask because I see many people worried about the multiple attackers scenario when they can't even handle a single attacker.

[Furthermore, keep in mind that MMA training doesn't have to be clinch --> takedown --> ground and pound/submit (a sequence that terrifies the person worried about multiple attackers.) You can use a takedown defense/"wrestling in reverse" to keep standing, which would be the better option for a multiple attacker scenario.]

[will_1400]

Oh, I thought you were saying you weren't a fan of MMA for many situations because, coming from a striking background, you often find you have to restrain yourself from punching your partner during BJJ practice.



You do realize if it was MMA practice (not BJJ) your partner would be defending against strikes and try not give you those openings?


As far as the argument of "MMA doesn't prepare you for multiple opponents" - I guess I'd have to ask if you are sure that your preferred system actually prepares you to fight a single opponent. I ask because I see many people worried about the multiple attackers scenario when they can't even handle a single attacker.

[Furthermore, keep in mind that MMA training doesn't have to be clinch --> takedown --> ground and pound/submit (a sequence that terrifies the person worried about multiple attackers.) You can use a takedown defense/"wrestling in reverse" to keep standing, which would be the better option for a multiple attacker scenario.]

To start, I just used BJJ as an example as part of that post. Considering so many people in MMA appear to me as thinking that striking is only a means to get into grappling range, that overemphasis is dangerous. And, yes, I know that you can do wrestling in reverse. That's the main reason I'm training at an MMA gym: so I can be better equipped to handle someone who can negate my strikes and to give me options against someone who is a better striker than me.

As for the rest... First off, I'm just stating observations that I've made through personal experience at an MMA gym I train at now. Second, I've done MMA workouts. I nearly KO'd a guy from the bottom because he was expecting me to try to clinch instead of hitting him with elbows to the temple and jaw. From what I've seen at several gyms, the focus is on dealing with other MMA fighters in their weight class. Heck, I keep getting admonished for stuff that's "against the rules" or doing something like training southpaw (I'm right-handed when it comes to martial arts) and so on.

Finally, I know my system works because I've used it to protect myself against multiple attackers.

And I'd just like to close this out by saying that I'm not saying MMA doesn't work, but I do see some potential weaknesses and wanted to express my opinion based on a martial artist who has been training for 10 years and has had more than his share of altercations that ended up with punches thrown. Nothing more.

[jc000]

You do realize if it was MMA practice (not BJJ) your partner would be defending against strikes and try not give you those openings?


As far as the argument of "MMA doesn't prepare you for multiple opponents" - I guess I'd have to ask if you are sure that your preferred system actually prepares you to fight a single opponent. I ask because I see many people worried about the multiple attackers scenario when they can't even handle a single attacker.

[Furthermore, keep in mind that MMA training doesn't have to be clinch --> takedown --> ground and pound/submit (a sequence that terrifies the person worried about multiple attackers.) You can use a takedown defense/"wrestling in reverse" to keep standing, which would be the better option for a multiple attacker scenario.]

Thanks.

[Leozinho]

As for the rest... First off, I'm just stating observations that I've made through personal experience at an MMA gym I train at now. Second, I've done MMA workouts. I nearly KO'd a guy from the bottom because he was expecting me to try to clinch instead of hitting him with elbows to the temple and jaw.

Congrats. That's how it's supposed to work. Training partner makes a mistake and puts himself in a bad position. You punish him for it. He learns from it. It's no different from catching people in arm bars and chokes when they put themselves in bad positions. If you are consistently rocking your training partner from the bottom, I'd say it's more of a reflection of your training partner (or his coach) than MMA itself.

[/QUOTE]

From what I've seen at several gyms, the focus is on dealing with other MMA fighters in their weight class. Heck, I keep getting admonished for stuff that's "against the rules" or doing something like training southpaw (I'm right-handed when it comes to martial arts) and so on.

While you may have self protection in mind, others are there for MMA as a sport. You have to follow "the rules," as you put it. If you can't live with that, go somewhere else.

What's the interest with training southpaw? Is that a TMA thing?

[will_1400]

Congrats. That's how it's supposed to work. Training partner makes a mistake and puts himself in a bad position. You punish him for it. He learns from it. It's no different from catching people in arm bars and chokes when they put themselves in bad positions. If you are consistently rocking your training partner from the bottom, I'd say it's more of a reflection of your training partner (or his coach) than MMA itself.

While you may have self protection in mind, others are there for MMA as a sport. You have to follow "the rules," as you put it. If you can't live with that, go somewhere else.

What's the interest with training southpaw? Is that a TMA thing?[/QUOTE]

And when the sport guys start giving their word as gospel for self protection? This last gym I recently joined is pretty good about saying "in competition, this isn't legal but here's something you can do in the street", so it isn't so bad. But I've yet to see a lightweight spar a middleweight or light heavyweight outside of BJJ rolls.

Training your weak side is a TMA thing. The idea is you don't have to do anything to "set up" your power hand or side since both sides are as equally trained as you can manage. It's the same concept as learning how to shoot WHO with a pistol. Also, learning how to fight southpaw when you're orthodox can shed new understanding of a technique.

[Nik the Greek]

While ground fighting was a weak point, the KM gym i trained at emphasized take down defense. I sometime take a garage class with a friend who competes on the amateur level MMA circuit and I can verify that those defenses were effective in that setting. He also organizes multi opponent fights where a new combatant enters mid-bout to force whoever is winning to react.it's been very helpful supplemental training.

[BaiHu]

What's the interest with training southpaw? Is that a TMA thing?

Training southpaw is a much bigger deal in unarmed combat in comparison to gun training. For example, TLG, IIRC trains WHO (left hand for him) about 5-10% of the time. However, if you are close enough to an attacker that you cannot access your weapon of choice, you better have equal or close to equal power, dexterity and confidence in your weak hand.

This is where TMA excels. B/c MMA, Boxing, etc are a sport with specific rules of engagement, they do have some technical weaknesses/blind sides, however, before you paint me as a TMA fanbois only (25 years in and 15 years teaching full time), MMA, boxing, etc have one great advantage: they spend more time hardening the body to work comfortably while being under stress and getting a least a bit of snot knocked out of them.

Since I have a wide range of ages that I teach, I have a wide range of concerns to contend with and therefore have other means of providing stress enough to make sure a technique is strong w/o risking the injuries that a MMA gym might be less concerned about due to the bulk of participants being in their 20's.

Yes, I'm making a generalization and it's fairly educated generalization since a) they recover faster, b) they are young and less experienced in reality and therefore c) feel they are more invincible.

Yes, I've been there and the s&*t I used to do between 18-26 was retarded and risky. I was still doing flips back then....needless to say, I had to pass that torch and we won't talk about why

[Cecil Burch]

Training southpaw is a much bigger deal in unarmed combat in comparison to gun training. For example, TLG, IIRC trains WHO (left hand for him) about 5-10% of the time. However, if you are close enough to an attacker that you cannot access your weapon of choice, you better have equal or close to equal power, dexterity and confidence in your weak hand.

This is where TMA excels.

I have to disagree. This is where almost all TMAs fall short.

The only time the orthodox/southpaw thing comes into play is at outside (striking) range. Once the fight devolves to an attached entanglement, it is a moot point since there is no lead. Both hands are in play equally so it is irrelevant what "lead" you are used to hitting from.

And while most TMAs spend time working some ambidexterity in striking, very, very few spend anytime at all in the clinch or grappling ranges that MMA and grappling arts spend the majority of time training, and this is where the most dangerous H2H confrontations happen (the ECQC range). MMA/BJJ/Judo/wrestling have a huge advantage over TMA, not just because of some body hardening effect, but because they more efficiently train clinch and grappling skills.

[Cecil Burch]

From what I've seen at several gyms, the focus is on dealing with other MMA fighters in their weight class. Heck, I keep getting admonished for stuff that's "against the rules" or doing something like training southpaw (I'm right-handed when it comes to martial arts) and so on.

In 32 years of doing martial arts, and being heavily involved in MMA from it's beginnings, I have never seen a legitimate MMA gym that does that. Every gym I have trained at, taught at, mentored, or taught at had everyone work with everyone. As a matter of fact, it is a desired norm because it gives even the pro fighters different things to work. A heavyweight can get good experience working clinch with a fast middleweight, while a welterweight gets a heavier working load doing the same thing against a heavyweight.