Helping a newbie shooter to reduce low shots

[Chewbacca10]

Prob a mix of what you mentioned as well as smashing the trigger shoe too long. Dot or irons?

Irons.

[Clusterfrack]

I just rewatched this Clickbait video, and I like it even less than before.

Gripping the gun hard is important. But why? Is it just to mask a sloppy trigger press or maybe there’s more to it. Of course Leatham knows all this but doesn’t discuss in the video.

Pulling the trigger without moving the gun is important as well, but is rarely the cause of large misses. He briefly mentions pushing down on the gun, but doesn’t address how significant that can be, or that dryfire trigger presses aren’t going to solve it.

Terrible video.

[medmo]

I introduced a friend of mine to handgun shooting. He's a U.S. Army veteran with a some time behind a rifle but not much experience with handguns.

He's progressing more quickly than I did when I started learning, but he's frustrated with his groups showing some inconsistency. Basically, he's hitting at six o'clock somewhat frequently at seven yards (I'd say maybe six or sometimes eight inches below the nine ring on a B-8).

My guess is that his ring and pinky fingers are not fully gripping the gun until the millisecond before he completes the trigger press, and that when they do fully grip the gun, they are pulling his shots low.

I should note that he's not shooting low and left, just low (and sometimes a little high).

Any thoughts on whether that grip issue may be causing the problem and suggestions on how to help him fix it?

Load a mag for him and mix in a few dummy rounds. If they are anticipating recoil and pushing down you will see it. This would be my first guess. If you see this movement with “firing” dummy rounds I’d recommend dry fire. Lots of dry fire followed up with some live fire. What I found successful as a range coach. Some people are more sensitive to noise so see if doubling up on protection helps. Try both inner and outer hearing simultaneously and see if it helps. After pulling the trigger for them drill I found success telling them that the brain can only focus well on one thing at a time. They should focus so much on their sight alignment and sight picture that it was like someone else pulling their trigger.

[CraigS]

Is he shooting a full size pistol? Or at least a 4" barrel midsized pistol? Assuming 9mm, a technique I have used when it seems the problem is recoil anticipation, is load just 2 rnds in a mag. Have him/her shoot one handed. Tell them don't worry about accuracy, anywhere on the paper is fine. Do the 2 rnd mag maybe 4-5 times at whatever pace they are comfortable with. My point is to get them to realize that recoil isn't that big a deal. They just shot one handed and all is fine so 2 handed will be easier.

[1slow]

One thing I found helpful: Get all the grip you are going to use before you press the trigger.
As many previously mentioned, it is more complicated than whether you are jerking the trigger.

Seems like:
if you have a hard consistent grip , trigger press will not alter impact point much,
If you have a very good trigger press you can get by with a much lighter grip.
I try to have a hard grip and a good trigger press.

I have found shooting one handed , both left and right handed helps me to refine my trigger press.

[piefairy]

I am by no means a great shooter, but a recent course I took had us do these two drills and they have dramatically improved my low/ low-left shot. I'm now grouping in a 1.5 inch margin at 10 yards and on target.

A technique I was taught at a recent training was to grip the gun with 1 hand, resting the finger fell on your driving finger, leave the pinky and one next to it off the frame. Wrap your thumb around like normal, but do not clench. Aim and fire. The purpose is to get the sympathetic reaction of the finger that naturally want to clench when you squeeze the trigger, throwing the shot low, to relax and not be part of the process. When taking a shot, they should not move, whether in a normal grip or this loose grip. The gun will not leave his hand, so don't worry about that. You don't need to choke a gun for it to stay in your hand. I find this helped me quite a bit with my low shots.

The trick I was taught about anticipation was to make every shot a surprise break. Take up the slack in the trigger and slowly increase the pressure until it breaks and goes off, do not jerk through the wall trying to get the shot off as soon as your lined up. While this isn't likely the cause of such dramatic low left shots, when he starts getting closer and needs to refine the process, this will help. Once you get use to the fact that the gun is going to fire, and there will be an explosion in your hand and no longer push the gun to compensate, you can beat the trigger all you want. But first you must get rid of the anticipation.

[DMF13]

I'd try to take some video, especially slow motion video, of him shooting. Do it from both sides. That may show you, and him, exactly what needs to be changed.

Also, is this happening in slow fire, or when shooting at "speed," or both?

If its only (or mostly) when trying to run with a little speed, I've found that having the shooter do the "trigger control at speed" drill, especially with a dot equipped gun, will show them what they're doing to cause errant shots. Frankly that drill has helped me diagnose my own issues, although breaking the bad habits is tough (in the category of simprle, not easy).

https://youtu.be/342zb7az2JA?feature=shared

https://youtu.be/pqPwFvzUP-E?feature=shared

[Chewbacca10]

@HCM

That Field Notes video was very helpful. It kind of explains what happened to me my first few times at the range. I wish I would have had some instruction instead of just some dude at the rental counter handing me a Smith & Wesson 686 and telling me to shoot the target. That really screwed me up for a year.

Is he shooting a full size pistol? Or at least a 4" barrel midsized pistol? Assuming 9mm, a technique I have used when it seems the problem is recoil anticipation, is load just 2 rnds in a mag. Have him/her shoot one handed. Tell them don't worry about accuracy, anywhere on the paper is fine. Do the 2 rnd mag maybe 4-5 times at whatever pace they are comfortable with. My point is to get them to realize that recoil isn't that big a deal. They just shot one handed and all is fine so 2 handed will be easier.

Full size Walther PDP. I like the one-handed idea.

One thing I found helpful: Get all the grip you are going to use before you press the trigger.
As many previously mentioned, it is more complicated than whether you are jerking the trigger.

Seems like:
if you have a hard consistent grip , trigger press will not alter impact point much,
If you have a very good trigger press you can get by with a much lighter grip.
I try to have a hard grip and a good trigger press.

I have found shooting one handed , both left and right handed helps me to refine my trigger press.

I will definitely try having him shoot one handed.

I am by no means a great shooter, but a recent course I took had us do these two drills and they have dramatically improved my low/ low-left shot. I'm now grouping in a 1.5 inch margin at 10 yards and on target.

A technique I was taught at a recent training was to grip the gun with 1 hand, resting the finger fell on your driving finger, leave the pinky and one next to it off the frame. Wrap your thumb around like normal, but do not clench. Aim and fire. The purpose is to get the sympathetic reaction of the finger that naturally want to clench when you squeeze the trigger, throwing the shot low, to relax and not be part of the process. When taking a shot, they should not move, whether in a normal grip or this loose grip. The gun will not leave his hand, so don't worry about that. You don't need to choke a gun for it to stay in your hand. I find this helped me quite a bit with my low shots.

This is really interesting. Maybe I will start with this and then have him add the pinky and ring fingers later.

I'd try to take some video, especially slow motion video, of him shooting. Do it from both sides. That may show you, and him, exactly what needs to be changed.

Also, is this happening in slow fire, or when shooting at "speed," or both?

If its only (or mostly) when trying to run with a little speed, I've found that having the shooter do the "trigger control at speed" drill, especially with a dot equipped gun, will show them what they're doing to cause errant shots. Frankly that drill has helped me diagnose my own issues, although breaking the bad habits is tough (in the category of simprle, not easy).

https://youtu.be/342zb7az2JA?feature=shared

https://youtu.be/pqPwFvzUP-E?feature=shared

Definitely slow fire.

SLG has mentioned a few times on his blog that you have to learn how to shoot well slow before you ever learn how to shoot well at speed, and I am in 100 percent agreement with that. We'll add in speed when he can hold a decent group at ten yards. My goal for him is to have him pass the Hayes 5x5 Drill in six months.

[CraigS]

Another option is move the target closer. That way his groups will look better. Last thing you want is for him to spend 6 months trying and failing to hit a 3" bullseye at 10, 12 yds.. Although some indoor ranges frown on any slightly fast fire, I have found that loading 10rnds and tell him shoot as fast as you are comfortable. One friend was trying to make every shot perfect. Shooting a little faster at 10-15ft his groups suddenly improved because he was no longer trying for the perfect shot every time. My goal is to get the now shooter to realize that;
- the gun will make some noise
- the gun will move around in his hand
- the gun will come back to about where it was
All of that is perfectly normal and nothing to worry about. Some gold here;
"The trick I was taught about anticipation was to make every shot a surprise break. Take up the slack in the trigger and slowly increase the pressure until it breaks and goes off."
My friend above, was watching the sights move around back and forth across the target, and trying to pull the trigger at the perfect moment that the sights lined up on the bullseye. The surprise break is a far better technique. What usually happens is the shooter has a pretty large group, but as he shoots more the groups will get smaller. One more thought, do what ever you have to do to make his last mag a winner. Larger target, closer target, whatever makes it easier for him. If you can, put up a new target for that last mag. Encourage him to take that last target home. You want him to improve, but he needs to have fun too, or he will bail out.

[G19Fan]

I would guess primarily recoil anticipation

Mix in snap caps or get a .22lr