"Tonk"...Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's
"Tonk"...
"For a moment he felt good about this. A moment or two later he felt bad about feeling good about it. Then he felt good about feeling bad about feeling good about it and, satisfied, drove on into the night."
-- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy --
Sadly they were not allowed when I came on. But I do have two that were given to me. One is a flat sap. One is a black jack. They are definitely not created equal. I have found that many cops interchange the wording. The sap is a lot lighter and has no real spring action to it. The black jack is much heavier with a great spring action. The flat sap is as pictured in this thread. The black jack tends to be rounded with laced leather braiding.
Perhaps someone who has used both can chime in and tell us the real world difference. It seems to me that I could bust a head with a moderate swing of the sap. I suspect a moderate swing of the blackjack would send someone to the hospital or worse.
I know in Arizona it would be a dangerous instrument. They tend not to be used on people in Arizona anymore because of fine legal points. I.e. not all dangerous instruments are treated the same. If I'm using a walking stick while walking or using a flashlight while searching and someone gets their head busted in a knockdown drag out with me being the victim and winner even the most liberal County Attorney in Arizona down in Pima County tends to see the object first as it was legitimately being used.
With the sap or a blackjack, well it was intended to bust peoples heads. Again they are legal in Arizona. But when deciding right/wrong, guilt/innocence and most importantly, reasonable/unreasonable County Attorney's tend to look more harshly at the purpose made items. I would never carry mine in public. And if I were to use it, I would assume it to be a deadly weapon. Because make no mistake about it, that's how it is going to be portrayed in court, jury instruction not withstanding.
ETA: Many different cities have their own laws that might forbid them. You might want to check the city code of where you are traveling to.
Last edited by JustOneGun; 11-30-2015 at 08:57 AM.
What you do right before you know you're going to be in a use of force incident, often determines the outcome of that use of force.
I've hit more than one person with both. Jacks are definitely more damaging.
Last edited by SouthNarc; 11-30-2015 at 10:13 AM.
I am not an LEO, so my view on this may be either naive or simplistic. That being said, I look at a sap as a less-lethal weapon than either a handgun or a knife. Yes, a sap can surely be lethal, but it is more easily used as a less lethal weapon than either a knife or gun. A sap is certainly less dangerous to bystanders than a bullet and less likely to expose someone to blood-borne pathogens.
The issue with purpose-made weapons causing the user to be judged more harshly is just another example of people assigning blame to tools instead of to the individuals wielding them with bad intent.
Last edited by farscott; 11-30-2015 at 03:45 PM.
I'll third it. I haven't taken pics yet but this afternoon, I received some beautiful custom leather from Todd.
In the glorious people's republic of North Mexinadia, we don't need to defend ourselves, but I sure do love nice leather. I expect to use this for myofascial release, which I do a lot of on account of some old injuries and some new lifting.
I bet it works great.
This is a thread where I built a boat I designed and which I very occasionally update with accounts of using it, which is really fun as long as I'm not driving over logs and blowing up the outboard.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ilding-a-skiff
And yet a fourth endorsement. The Brothers Foster are definitely the sap-'jack gentlemen of the impact weapon coterie.
When I (temporarily) lost one of my Foster Brothers 'jacks several years ago, they made me a new one in double-quick time. Top-quality materials and construction.
"Therefore, since the world has still... Much good, but much less good than ill,
And while the sun and moon endure, Luck's a chance, but trouble's sure,
I'd face it as a wise man would, And train for ill and not for good." -- A.E. Housman
I will also chime in with praise for the Foster's products. I have a midget sap and one of the shorter blackjacks and the quality of leather and construction on both of them is outstanding. Both were very quick to respond to e-mails, very helpful with suggestions, and shipped very fast.
Personally I prefer the shorter length models as these are coat pocket carries for me. It has been a long time since I used a sap on anyone, but I have negotiated a few settlements with a MagLite. Personally I think the sap in particular is a more "humane" (less likely to cause lacerations) option when used with the flat against bony surfaces (such as a skull). Lacerations being the splitting of skin due to blunt force trauma, different than the wounds caused by sharp force objects.
They were common when I came on with uniform pants having a small slit pocket on the thigh. Mine was a spoon shape with a spring handle and rolled edges in dark brown leather. Never liked the thicker style or round braided style as they left cuts and you know how a cut around the head can bleed.
They were referred to as "spoons" and I knew an old dinosaur Lt. that was an artist with one. Could lay it right above the ear and the guy was in twilight but not out. As with most things overzealous use got them taken away.
Tom they can literally make anything you want. On a jack for me the sweet spot is 8" 13 ozs. Saps I like a bit shorter but not lighter.
Go over to TPI and search TODD1 posts and you can see a lot of his custom work.
Last edited by SouthNarc; 12-01-2015 at 07:15 AM.
Also Scott Foster goes by Disector at TPI so search his posts for jacks. I like the non-catalogued model called the Porrada and have one. His rendition of the classic Bucheimer Penna is also really nice. Basically a sewn, not braided jack.
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