Failed Red Dot Aiming Techniques

[Tokarev]

This may get more traction over on the red dot subforum. But here goes;

What are we using currently for alternate aiming techniques in case of optic failure? These are the current most popular/ones I've seen taught the most:

Guillotine method--the outline of the optic body is used as sort of a crude sight. Here the top edge of the optic is placed about the neck line of the target. Hence the name. It works okay back to about 10 yards or so. Many people paint a bright line fore and aft along the top of the optic as an aid to elevation. See the line? The muzzle is too high. Don't see the line? The muzzle is probably about right. Or it is way too low....

Slide elongation method--here the shooter tilts the pistol and sights down the length of the slide. This works somewhat like the guillotine method. See most or all of the slide? The muzzle is probably pointed too far left or right. See the rear or just the back corner of the slide? The muzzle is probably pointed at the target. Or too far left or right depending on which way the pistol is tilted...

A variant of the elongation method is to use the slight gap between the frame and slide as sort of an aiming trench. This gives a finer reference than using the entire length of the slide and should provide a little more accuracy. It is also fairly slow and may take awhile for the shooter to aim using this method.

Another variant to the slide method is to use the top edge of the optic. The same idea applies. The top corner of the optic is used as a makeshift pointer.

Alternate dot method--this is somewhat related to painting a bright line across the top of the optic. Here a small dot is painted onto the striker end plate. Or the tip of the firing pin can be used on a 1911 or other handgun with a hammer and firing pin. There's no need to guesstimate elevation since the firing pin is in line with the barrel. The firing pin or striker plate dot can be sort of combined with the slide elongation method to provide a pretty good degree of precision. Dots are also sometimes painted on the top of the optic housing.

Guillotine method is probably the fastest since it may not require much movement of the pistol. The shooter just needs to shift his eye from the window to the top of the optic, verify the optic against the shoulder or neck area and press the trigger.

Alternate dot method is probably fastest because the shooter doesn't necessarily have to move the pistol. Locate alternate dot and verify it is centered on the target (for end plate dots) and press trigger.

One of the elongation methods seems to provide better accuracy since the angle of the slide is used. It is also relatively slow and may not work as well as other methods depending on ambient light.

Is there anything else out there? What's y'alls preference for emergency aiming techniques?

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

[Jason M]

I have the best performance with the slide elongation method. This is out to about 15 yards.

[Whiskey]

I've not gotten super good results from the guillotine method, seems the shots are always very high or very low. Using the gap between the slide and frame has been fairly successful. I wish I had kept more detailed notes on that when we were doing our red dot transition.

Full occlusion failure is super unlikely in my work situation, so we didn't spend a ton of time on it. The biggest failures we have had are 1) Dude kept turning his optic (RMR) up to wumbo every day. He used up a battery in a couple months. 2) Optic just straight died. One day it was on, one day it wasn't, according to the individual. Obviously both of those in emergency would have been solved with use of the irons.

[Clusterfrack]

Paging @Cdub_NW

[Cdub_NW]

Not an easy or simple answer, all take significant reps practicing. As mentioned above a Guillotine method of using the upper edge of the window housing across the target's neck line tends to work well at longer distances from my experience.

I am not a fan or proponent of slide indexing as a sighting system and here is why: If the dot isn't able to be viewed due to an obstruction or occlusion that is temporary on the MRDS (water, snow, mud, fog, etc) often times its a self correcting problem once the weapon fires/cycles and physics works the item or material free from the optic. If one is using a guillotine or three-button or similar sighting solution while still engaging through the optic window, that dot might come right back into a functioning condition. If you are using a slide index sighting method, you A: wouldn't see the issue resolve; B still be engaging with an inferior sighting system when a better one is available; C: now be pistol/slide focused vs threat/target focused.

I think turning that optic off and figuring out where your housing has to be indexed to get reliable hits on target at given distances is worth the time, ammo and cost. Just my $.02

[YVK]

I check my grip and if I think my grip is right, I just send it looking through the window. This is something that I talked to Stoeger about in one of the classes I did with him.
Not exactly the same but somewhat related: all things being equal, I prefer to draw on a harder target to force myself into a good grip.

[1Rangemaster]

Coincidentally after a class today, I fired a few rounds checking my front sight (which has a gold bead) through the ACRO window, dot off. I don’t have a rear sight on this Glock; there is a small hump inside the optic I center the sight on. Works for face shots at 5 yards and torso shots at 10, FWIW. I haven’t explored a completely occluded optic, but will. I imagine I will try first just experimenting with the body outline and see how that goes.
I like the alternate dot idea and may work on that too-thanks!
(Edit to add: anything will take working on it with a few rounds-words of truth earlier.)

[Tokarev]

I check my grip and if I think my grip is right, I just send it looking through the window.

I should have prefaced my above:

Occluded front using tape simulates some sort of obstruction with the front window. This could be dirt or some other debris that keeps the shooter from seeing the dot against the target. With both eyes open the shooter should still be able to shoot with no real problem. Being that the front window is taped, the shooter can't see through and/or engage with irons.

No occlusion but no dot assumes the battery is dead or there's some kind of electronics failure (or poor presentation to the target) --
switch to irons. Easily simulated by turning the optic off.

Occluded rear using tape simulates debris or damage (shattered window) that obscures the target and the dot and renders the optic useless. This is a worst case scenario where the shooter cannot see the target, dot or irons through the optic hence the need for some other way to aim the pistol.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Broken & Blocked Optics is a block in my optics classes, whether from the front or back. I've taught the session at several events as well.

The session includes: Back-up irons, guillotine, ghost ring, slide plate cover/hammer, and the frame/slide interface line;

If the optic is blocked on the back side, then it's guillotine, slide plate cover/hammer, frame/slide interface;

It addresses environmental (rain) related failures, too.

eta: Not every optic lends itself to each method & that's why I teach different ones

[HCM]

This may get more traction over on the red dot subforum. But here goes;

What are we using currently for alternate aiming techniques in case of optic failure? These are the current most popular/ones I've seen taught the most:

Guillotine method--the outline of the optic body is used as sort of a crude sight. Here the top edge of the optic is placed about the neck line of the target. Hence the name. It works okay back to about 10 yards or so. Many people paint a bright line fore and aft along the top of the optic as an aid to elevation. See the line? The muzzle is too high. Don't see the line? The muzzle is probably about right. Or it is way too low....

Slide elongation method--here the shooter tilts the pistol and sights down the length of the slide. This works somewhat like the guillotine method. See most or all of the slide? The muzzle is probably pointed too far left or right. See the rear or just the back corner of the slide? The muzzle is probably pointed at the target. Or too far left or right depending on which way the pistol is tilted...

A variant of the elongation method is to use the slight gap between the frame and slide as sort of an aiming trench. This gives a finer reference than using the entire length of the slide and should provide a little more accuracy. It is also fairly slow and may take awhile for the shooter to aim using this method.

Another variant to the slide method is to use the top edge of the optic. The same idea applies. The top corner of the optic is used as a makeshift pointer.

Alternate dot method--this is somewhat related to painting a bright line across the top of the optic. Here a small dot is painted onto the striker end plate. Or the tip of the firing pin can be used on a 1911 or other handgun with a hammer and firing pin. There's no need to guesstimate elevation since the firing pin is in line with the barrel. The firing pin or striker plate dot can be sort of combined with the slide elongation method to provide a pretty good degree of precision. Dots are also sometimes painted on the top of the optic housing.

Guillotine method is probably the fastest since it may not require much movement of the pistol. The shooter just needs to shift his eye from the window to the top of the optic, verify the optic against the shoulder or neck area and press the trigger.

Alternate dot method is probably fastest because the shooter doesn't necessarily have to move the pistol. Locate alternate dot and verify it is centered on the target (for end plate dots) and press trigger.

One of the elongation methods seems to provide better accuracy since the angle of the slide is used. It is also relatively slow and may not work as well as other methods depending on ambient light.

Is there anything else out there? What's y'alls preference for emergency aiming techniques?

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

“Back plate” this is simply super imposing the back of the slide (or cylinder if a revolver) on the target.

Jim Cirillo was teaching this decades ago as the “Weapons Silhouette” technique.

accomplished by bringing the gun up in front of your face and looking past it at the target. What you see is the weapon’s silhouette. As long as (1) the target is (optically) wider than the gun and (2) the gun is aligned with the target, the hit will be made. It’s not a real target shooting technique, but it’s plenty accurate enough for a fight….”