"elitist?" -- I don't think I've ever been considered elite.Originally Posted by Ghost Dog
I asked if you had listened to a podcast about ammunition because it was extremely informative. I think you possibly could find many answers to your questions and maybe answers to questions you don't know to ask.
--Jason--
It's not so much elitism... more like autism. The ammo forum is where those most on the spectrum tend to hang out.
"You win 100% of the fights you avoid. If you're not there when it happens, you don't lose." - William Aprill
"I've owned a guitar for 31 years and that sure hasn't made me a musician, let alone an expert. It's made me a guy who owns a guitar."- BBI
Yes, so I should be most welcomed here then, with specific answer about Value to a none expanding JHP being .82 same as one that does expand but I'd like that confirmed. .82x is a good bit more than .66 for just one of my points
There is verified science, and then there is pointification, hearsay, bullshit, and blather. I don't see many points being made, but you've made a lot of noise.
You can math a bunch of stuff out on wound volumes and fairies dancing on the inside of the .380 JHP, but reality still bites back.
To answer point #1 from the OP, JHP's that do not expand, penetrate MORE than those that do. Round nose FMJ really doesn't penetrate that well, because it often starts tumbling, exposing larger surface areas to drag, and slowing the bullet down faster.
#2, .380/.32 FMJ or JHP deflect more often because they don't have the MASS to push through (or the velocity), and either bullet shape/construction suffers from the same lack of those things. There is a reason those calibers are not generally recommended.
#3 See comments above about fairies inside JHPS and bites of reality. Any "cutting" action of a plugged up JHP bullet is marginal and likely inconsequential to wounding effectiveness compared to a similar FMJ.
"Might as well use FMJ" in smaller calibers does have some merit, assuming the "optional" JHP does expand and retards penetration. The FMJ is still slightly more likely to penetrate to a useful depth (in .380 and .32 specifically). Something like .38 Special wadcutter, or 100gr .32 Long/H&R has enough more mass and velocity to start making square cutting edges, and tissue crushing become slightly more of a factor. More fairies dancing on bullet tips. Where the bullet is placed matters far more than bullet type and construction.
Cockiness wont help you learn. I'd take the advice of listening to the P&S podcast mentioned. And read the pinned articles. You're much better off spending your time, resources, and brainpower on learning to shoot really well, than worrying about some small measure of incapacitation or effectiveness of any particular caliber/load/bullet etc.
You're still just poking handgun caliber holes in things. None of these things are death rays. There are reasons and circumstances to choose something like a .32 or .380, but one would be wise to understand the limitations of those calibers before carrying them.
Here is the specific podcast that is being referred to:
"It's surprising how often you start wondering just how featureless a desert some people's inner landscapes must be."
-Maple Syrup Actual
I've studied all of this extensively, yes, I've read more than most on the subject and listened to the entire podcast when it aired. Instead of, "dude it doesn't matter", or "they are the same", I am specifically talking about how there are potential benefits to a jhp that is known WILL NOT Upset or only deform slightly vs an fmj, if it runs reliably. "Same as an FMJ" is not accurate.
While x.82 vs .66 fluid tissue dynamics is being blown off as to cutting or effecting more tissue
Desiring sill good penetration, but less so than an FMJ I gave various examples of when that could be beneficial. Obviously it is very caliber specific, grain weight, sectional density etc.
Higher chance at a given angle to cut in straight through bone vs deflection COULD be a very big deal.
I'm just saying they are not the same, just like a Wadcutter isn't the same as an FMJ. After all, straight line penetration through bone, desired penetration depths, and tearing of more tissue is why this forum loves wadcutters ...besides less recoil in jframes....than an FMJ. .38 Snub while I would prefer a premier expanding jhp, then a wadcutter, a none expanding 125 gr xtp from the short barrel would be preferred for all the reasons I gave in CITY LIFE, over a 130 gr FMJ.
Those are three differences, whether or not you think you must attack my shooting skill of which you don't know because you're happy with fmj, or think it doesn't matter is really, isn't addressing the three differences....
ON AN AMMUNITION FORUM of why "Not the Same as FMJ".
plus I made the thread on election night when many couldn't sleep and trying to make fun threads on the forum which has been a little slow overall outside of cc9 thread.
What did the Stakeout Squad learn about LRN Widow makers to the skull....
What did Bill Allard load in the pipe of his 1911
[QUOTE=Ghost Dog;1628004]What did the Stakeout Squad learn about LRN Widow makers to the skull....
Handguns suck
Dude,
You really need to turn off the computer, go outside, take some deep, calming breaths, and touch some grass for a while.
The title of this post..."Reconfirm me"... tells us that you are seeking validation, not asking for input.
Literally nobody is arguing the point with you. FMJ is recommended for small autos which choke on JHPs, with the side benefit that it will penetrate deeper in calibers with typically shallow penetration...particularly with JHPs.
The thing is.....your epiphany is nothing new. In the early-mid 80's, Mas Ayoob wrote an article (I think in Combat Handguns) titled .45 Ammo, the Case Against Hardball, in which he made the very same points that you are trying to preach. It ain't nothing new!! And if you could get over yourself, it seems to me that if you have done as deep a dive as you claim to have, you would have already discovered this.
As to your "x.82 vs .66 fluid tissue dynamics", Jeff Cooper once (probably more than once) said something about people becoming over occupied with minutiae.
Now, having said all that, I think you are a good guy. You just seem to get fixated on something, and then nobody can interrupt your train of thought short of using a shovel. If multiple people here are saying the same thing to you, then maybe, just maybe, you might step back, lose the persecution complex, and consider that what they are trying to tell you is valid.
ETA: A primary benefit of JHP over FMJ, which you have not mentioned, is that ammo manufacturers tend to regard their FMJ lines as range/target/plinking ammo, and it generally does not have the QA and QC of their premium defensive lines. This has historically been the case with WC ammo as well, until some smart folks...some of which are/were regular members here....began talking to a few ammo makers.
Last edited by Chuck Whitlock; 11-10-2024 at 08:32 AM.
"It's surprising how often you start wondering just how featureless a desert some people's inner landscapes must be."
-Maple Syrup Actual
