AR15 Advice

[skl3e]

Hello Everyone,

Hope you are doing well. Long time reader and frankly out of all the forums, this is the forum I trust the most with advice and it simply has the best expertise IMO. You probably want to know what I will use it for. It will mostly be at home, but will take it to a range probably once a month to shoot ~250 rounds. I may do a class or two per year. I have been strongly looking into a SBR because I want the option to fire suppressed or not and adding ~4" to a 16 inch is a little long for me, however, I am not opposed to a standard length. Being able to shoot suppressed/unsuppresed reliably is a higher priority than SBR. Additionally I suspect (have not looked at actual numbers) that an SBR would shave some weight. I fully understand that this can be a large expense, but looking at it from the perspective of: "If I can get one that does everything and lasts a long time, I am OK with that." I have shot various AR15s before and fondled even more and ready to take the plunge.

Standard traits:
Reliability (suppressed and un-suppressed)
Durability (rifle that will last my life - I understand parts will need to be changed)
Accuracy (100 yard touching hole capable or 1/2" group. Capable of hitting an 8" target 300 yards and longer distance in general)

What I am considering thus far:
http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin...status=&title=
http://www.knightarmco.com/portfolio...ws-carbine-sbr
http://www.laruetactical.com/costa-edition
BCM Build (maybe eag? http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M...gers-s/151.htm)

Thanks everyone and I look forward to your responses.

[TGS]

First, check out the carbine basics thread here. Lots of great, random info for new AR15 guys.

Second, good luck being able to buy what you want right now. I've been looking for my first EBR the past couple months, and last weekend finally decided to buy an AR15. Almost all the major components from almost all of the quality brands are out of stock........BCM has an 8-12 month wait for builds right now, so they're out of stock with BCGs and lowers. So, I was fortunately able to get a 14.5" middy upper from BCM (exactly what I wanted), but had to buy a Rainier Arms lower (quality mil-spec, I'm happy). Then I couldn't find a good BCG, which is the heart of the AR and one of the most important components due to improperly staked gas keys....the only ones I could find were notoriously low quality ones, until a guy came on Gunbroker with 5 BCM bolt carrier groups for $220 a piece....expensive, damn near $100 more than their usual price, but my only other options were BCGs that I was sure to have problems with.

Doing all this during this panic buying ended up costing me a bit more than a quality BCM rifle would normally run. A lot of threads out there are outdated, because they talk of a mythical world where a quality AR can be had for $800-$1000. Ha! Not right now.....and even still, be prepared to have to search around for various components.

My upper is upstairs right now....the BCM BCG is 3 business days late (thanks USPS, you f'ing suck), and my lower just came in at the FFL yesterday. I'm excited. Let us know what you get!

[Sparks2112]

We have the knights in stock. Impressive isn't a big enough word for those things. My father just submitted the form 4 for one. I'm a fan.

[WDW]

Get a Colt, DD, KAC, or BCM & call it a day. Each of those can be had or easily made into an SBR. Top off with an Aimpoint PRO & hit the range.

[LittleLebowski]

Accuracy (100 yard touching hole capable or 1/2" group. Capable of hitting an 8" target 300 yards and longer distance in general)

I think your 100 yard group requirements needs to be double or tripled unless you want a precision rifle. 8" at 300 is well over 2" at 100 yards and honestly, 2 MOA at 100 is fine. Hell, 3 MOA at 100 is fine for a carbine and so is 4 MOA for most people.

I honestly believe a Colt/DD/BCM/Knights off of the shelf would do everything you need it do and wishing for .5 MOA at a 100 yards from an AR15 carbine (said with respect) shows that you need to learn more about reasonable expectations from weapons. Is it doable? Maybe. Is a .5MOA at 100 yards weapon going to be something you want to take a carbine class with? No. Are you willing to put up with the added weight and cost to knock your groups down 1.5-3" at 100 yards? Can you personally shoot a .5 MOA group at 100 (driving a gas powered gun is hard than a bolt gun)?

Buy a Colt/DD/BCM/Knights/Noveske stock off of the shelf. Add sling, light, white light, red dot sight, make sure you have iron sights. Add in a bottle of any firearms lube or motor oil, mix with ammo, and training. Add more training and stir repeatedly.

[Odin Bravo One]

No secret that I am a HUGE fan of Noveske Rifles.

[sammage]

A Noveske light recce or chrome lined barrel with decent ammo should fit the bill, and be affordable.

[JRas]

All those will be sufficient, really personal preference. At this point, you may not know what you need/want from a rifle.

[DocGKR]

Very little factory ammo is capable of consistently shooting to 0.5 MOA out of ANY rifle.

I am happy with 3 MOA from a 16" AR15 carbine and quite thrilled with 2 MOA.

Get a 16" 5.56 mm DI AR15 w/FF rail from Colt, BCM, LMT, LaRue, Noveske, DD--add a RDS or 1-4/6/8x variable optic, a SF EAG Fury light, good 2 point sling, and spend all your other efforts on ammo, training, and practice.

---------------------------------------

In an 8-9" brl SBR configuration .300BLK has far better terminal ballistics than 4.6mm and 5.7 mm PDW's and is a great MP5 replacement. Likewise .300BLK has the potential for better terminal performance and intermediate barrier penetration than 5.56 mm from MK18 style SBR's. In supersonic form from 16" barrels .300BLK offers terminal ballistics on par with 7.62x39mm or lower weight .30-30's. It should be a very good LE caliber with the right ammunition. The key is getting appropriate .30 cal bullets produced that are designed to work at the lower .300BLK velocities instead of .308/.30-06/.300WM velocities. So far, the best barrier blind .300BLK load is the Barnes 110 gr TTSX.

Let's not forget that most assault rifle cartridges, while capable of hitting out beyond 500 yds in static range conditions, are often chambered in carbines equipped with minimal magnification (1-4x) that makes it quite difficult to get PID, let alone successfully hit a concealed or moving target in dynamic combat conditions at 200-300+ yds. Thus most AR15 carbines are at best 300-400 yd weapons, since most are running either RDS or magnified optics of 4x and less.

-- For 8-12" AR15 SBR's, the .300 BLK is the best current option.
-- For 12-16" AR15 rifles, the 6.8 mm is a fantastic multi-purpose choice.
-- With 5.56 mm AR15's, we are pretty much using them in two ways––16" general purpose carbines and 10-12" suppressed SBR's.

Keep in mind that 5.45x39mm, .223/5.56mm, 6.5G, 6.8 SPC, 7.62x39mm, .300 BLK, and any offshoot variants all are essentially intermediate power, assault rifle cartridges, lacking in case capacity. They are all fine at short to intermediate range, but once you get out past 300 or so, none are ideal. If you need to kill things at ranges beyond 300 or so, it is time to consider cartridges with a larger case capacity than can easily fit in an AR15, as well as higher magnification optics in order to ID your target––think at a minimum a 16" semi-auto .308 rifle like a LaRue OBR/PredatOBR, KAC EMC, HK417, FN SCAR-H. For truly long range work, then a bolt action magnum is the way to rock.

SeanM has sagely commented: "If it is a precision shot, more than 250 out, and it doesn't have 4 legs, live in a hole, and do somersaults when it gets hit by 556, then I go ahead and move onto the .300 Win Mag and leave the little bullets for other things..."

Likewise, Kyle Defoor has written:

”As has been pointed out 5.56 does fine in moderate wind out pretty far. There are an assload of guys both Army and Navy that have slayed past 600 repeatedly.

For pickin and choosin I tell guys the rules of 4 for caliber:

400 and closer: 5.56mm all day (ie. assault rifle calibers as noted above)
400-800: 7.62mm
800-1200: 300 WM
1200-1600: 338 Lapua”

[TGS]

Keep in mind that 5.45x39mm, .223/5.56mm, 6.5G, 6.8 SPC, 7.62x39mm, .300 BLK, and any offshoot variants all are essentially intermediate power, assault rifle cartridges, lacking in case capacity. They are all fine at short to intermediate range, but once you get out past 300 or so, none are ideal.

Doesn't the 6.5G have more downrange energy and less wind-drift at 800-1000 than 308, or is that just hype?