Drones in Modern Military Combat (Ukraine)

[JRB]

Interesting note on viability of shooting at drones. TL/DR they often don’t operate alone, so when you go to engage one, there may be another waiting for you to do expose yourself.

https://twitter.com/@twitter/status/1831651955766104218

Needless to say, there's a lot of details like the ones you're discussing that can be put together from open source -just like you have here. But there's a lot of not-open-source details included in what we are being briefed, talking about, chewing on, and developing TTP's around.

Short version is that good semiauto scatter guns with red dots give you a sliver of a chance against drones, which is better than no chance at all.
It's also immediately available and relatively easy to field, the only issues are the doctrinal resistance, the harrumphing old coots with a eagles and stars on their chest that hate the idea of giving Soldiers any kind of actual weapon, and of course developing a weapon qual for an anti-drone shotgun.

Naturally, the industry is hyperactively pursuing kinetic and non-kinetic drone defense systems and salivating at the possible profits.

Putting it in P-F terms, Shotguns vs Drones is basically being the dude with a pocketed J-frame and a mouthful of burrito when three dudes with AK's roll into the food court and start shooting. Meaning, you don't have a good chance, but a slim chance is better than no chance at all.

[Caballoflaco]

[MENTION=6108]JRB[/MENTION] to clarify pretty sure sure that dude’s talking about rifles and not shotguns.

If you haven’t seen it, this video might have some training value for ya’ll as it has pretty good go-pro video of guys dealing with dropper and recon drones during an attack on Russian positions.

[JRB]

[MENTION=6108]JRB[/MENTION] to clarify pretty sure sure that dude’s talking about rifles and not shotguns.

If you haven’t seen it, this video might have some training value for ya’ll as it has pretty good go-pro video of guys dealing with dropper and recon drones during an attack on Russian positions.

I didn't watch any of those videos because I don't care to see any more videos of drones turning guys into splattered chunks or watching as they off themselves. The first couple hundred were enough.
If there's something with training value I'm interested, but I've no interest in watching Russians or Ukrainians die for the sake of watching them die.

[Caballoflaco]

I didn't watch any of those videos because I don't care to see any more videos of drones turning guys into splattered chunks or watching as they off themselves. The first couple hundred were enough.
If there's something with training value I'm interested, but I've no interest in watching Russians or Ukrainians die for the sake of watching them die.

It’s an interview/aar with the members of a unit of English speaking foreigners serving in the Ukrainian Army detailing a failed attack on a Russian held town that’s interspersed with GoPro footage of the battle. There might not be much overlap with what y’all do due to resources, but it’s not just people dying set to eurohardbass filmed from the air.

Watch a few minutes starting at 14:00 when the first discussion of drones is mentioned and they first encounter them as they’re leaving their position to start their portion of the attack to see if it might be worth your time.

[Hambo]

Needless to say, there's a lot of details like the ones you're discussing that can be put together from open source -just like you have here. But there's a lot of not-open-source details included in what we are being briefed, talking about, chewing on, and developing TTP's around.

Short version is that good semiauto scatter guns with red dots give you a sliver of a chance against drones, which is better than no chance at all.
It's also immediately available and relatively easy to field, the only issues are the doctrinal resistance, the harrumphing old coots with a eagles and stars on their chest that hate the idea of giving Soldiers any kind of actual weapon, and of course developing a weapon qual for an anti-drone shotgun.

Naturally, the industry is hyperactively pursuing kinetic and non-kinetic drone defense systems and salivating at the possible profits.

Putting it in P-F terms, Shotguns vs Drones is basically being the dude with a pocketed J-frame and a mouthful of burrito when three dudes with AK's roll into the food court and start shooting. Meaning, you don't have a good chance, but a slim chance is better than no chance at all.

I'm interested in the psychological reaction to drones. I doubt that drones kill more soldiers than 155mm or HIMARS. One might target you personally, but so will a sniper. Soldiers don't kill themselves to avoid stepping on mines, but some do when attacked by a drone. Is this a terrified conscript thing?

[JRB]

I'm interested in the psychological reaction to drones. I doubt that drones kill more soldiers than 155mm or HIMARS. One might target you personally, but so will a sniper. Soldiers don't kill themselves to avoid stepping on mines, but some do when attacked by a drone. Is this a terrified conscript thing?

Arty and HIMARs are dominant, but the hunter-killer drones are doing more than I expected. Generally the man-killer drones target scouts/forward patrols or infantry in trenches/foxholes etc close to the front lines. Arty and HIMARS are prioritizing attacks against other 'combat power' like other arty, armored vehicles, bases, trucks, etc. Drones are used heavily to recon for both. The old military joke of 'try to look unimportant, they may be low on ammo' is surprisingly real.

The psychological thing is grim. Unlike the US military, there is basically no hope for CASEVAC or a QRF or anyone coming to help you. If you are wounded you have to make your own way back to your own people. RUS is particularly bad about this (to no one's surprise).
So that's why guys are eating their own AK74's once they see a drone zeroed in on them. They'd rather die like that, quickly, without the risk of brutal maiming or dying in lots of pain over the course of hours, or days. That grim assumption and the lack of MEDEVAC/CASEVAC are a big factor in why the KIA rate is so high.

[Caballoflaco]

As far as I know there’s only been a couple of videos showing uninjured soldiers committing suicide when faced with drones, most folks do still try to live. The autists tracking this stuff trying to figure out what is going on have recorded over100 suicides by injured guys killing themselves.

There is also a pretty strong culture of death is preferable to capture in the Russian Army right now. Including pamphlets that showed how to kill yourself with a grenade if wounded.

Here’s a video from state run Russian TV telling them that suicide to prevent a slow death isn’t “suicide”.
https://twitter.com/@twitter/status/1789963310193913942

To add to JRB’s posts about evac time. There was a pretty long thread by a Ukrainian medic on soldiers loosing limbs because they were tourniqueted unnecessarily and for too long while waiting for evacuation.

[TGS]

To add to JRB’s posts about evac time. There was a pretty long thread by a Ukrainian medic on soldiers loosing limbs because they were tourniqueted unnecessarily and for too long while waiting for evacuation.

To add context to this who are unfamiliar: Soviet-origin militaries have virtually no recognizable casualty care echelon like the US.

There's a few things that make our militaries dramatically different. A professional NCO corps, emphasis on decentralized operations, mission statements featuring a task AND purpose so that even a squad leader can adjust as necessary on the fly to best accomplish the commanders desired end state, a logistics train unlike any other in the world, and a casualty care system unlike any other in the world. I think Americans take for granted the fact that our troops can treat themselves, have a buddy treat them, have a combat lifesaver treat them, then have a medic treat them at the casualty collection point, all the while CASEVAC is already enroute, and you go to an acute surgical suite right away, then shuffled off to a more definitive hospital care, and finally either back to Rammstein, Germany or the US for your long-term treatment that features more expertise on site than virtually any hospital in the western world.

What's the soviet system look like? Well, the grim and unpleasant joke of, "Russian's doing what Russians do best: suffer" has a factual basis. There's really not much in the way of a functional casualty care system. In the Soviet-Afghan War, lots of Soviet troops took hits to their body armor from long range .30 cal shots. The body armor would stop it, but would commonly result in a hemothorax. For those who are familiar with a pneumothorax, a hemothorax is pretty similar....but we're changing out the words "pneumo" (air) with "hemo" (blood). So you slowly get a buildup of blood in your pleural cavity which does the same thing as a tension pneumothorax....crushing your lung, and eventually putting enough pressure against your heart that it can't pump anymore blood. Dying from a hemothorax in the western world, including in combat, is virtually unheard of. It can be effectively treated at your first surgical site that Dustoff brings you to, and sometimes on the helicopter itself. SOF units even possess the capability to treat it in a rudimentary but life-saving manner at the casualty collection point.

Soviets? Eh, well, there's a hospital in Kazakhstan you'll go to. But that takes 3 days to get there. Here's some vodka and cigs in the meantime to hopefully ease the pain as you slowly, very uncomfortably die before then. So, something like 80%+ of the troops suffering hemothoraces would end up dying. That's pretty grim. Pretty fucking embarrassing, actually.

The Soviets virtually just didn't give a shit. Incompetence, corruption, Russian pessimissm.....blame whichever attribute you want from that god-awful society. But, things haven't really changed a whole lot since then. Starting in 2014 the Ukrainians have made a decided shift towards the west, but AFAIK our influence on their casualty care system only goes as far as maneuver unit training...that being self-aid, buddy aid, and medic aid. Setting up CCPs. Using MARCH. That whole thing. Everything after the CCP is basically unchanged, their saving grace that we're pouring resources in.

The other side of the border? Eh. Well. Have fun slowly dying in a cage without any care (I'm curious if the Russian troops have coined a term for those casualty internment facilities). At least your family kinda sorta maybe might be gifted a piece of shit Russian economy car in return, but that'd require the Russian government to admit your death in combat...so, fat chance.

Offing yourself as a Russian soldier makes a whole lot more sense when you look at the context of their situation. The armies in the age of Alexander the Great and the Romans had more functional casualty care than modern day Russia, even if that amounted to plunging a spike in your head if you were suffering from an unsurvivable wound.

[HCM]

https://mwi.westpoint.edu/small-unit...gmlcuo0EUnK8Pw



SMALL UNITS NEED PROTECTION FROM DRONES—BUT WHAT CAPABILITIES SHOULD A LIGHT, MANEUVERABLE COUNTER-UAS PLATFORM INCLUDE?

[HCM]

https://x.com/sambendett/status/1832887125844603274

Russian soldiers showing how the latest Bulat-4 drone detector can be connected via Bluetooth to a Russian smartwatch (made with Chinese components) so that up to 30 watches in the 50 meter (160 feet) radius from Bulat can display the same drone detection signals and info.