Combatives Fitness Test?

[Polecat]

Didn’t want to add to an older post on “standards” as there wasn’t much substance. Really would like to invigorate this section, as it is key I feel to what we endeavor. What would be a meaningful test for combatives fitness? I don’t think a full on SF selection PT is necessary, but what elements should it incorporate and within that what cut off values are reasonable for various degrees of fitness.

I think several components are essential for evaluation. For example, strength, speed, endurance flexibility, etc. really whatever those with more experience, and insight recommend. Broad jump, 10 yard or 40 yard dash, maybe Squat, deadlift, overhead press, bench, pull up, chin up, vertical leg raises etc. Would it be more useful to know a one rep max, or using The bench press, for example, would it be more telling to say Bodyweight for 5, 7, 10, 15 reps?

Thanks team, looking forward to your insight.

[Chance]

Larry Lindenman posted about this years ago. It's not exactly a "test", but the standards therein seem like a solid benchmark if combatives are your focus.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The bench press, for example, would it be more telling to say Bodyweight for 5, 7, 10, 15 reps?

Is that what your body weight is supposed to be for your height? Or what is actually is? When younger I could press my ideal body weight for reps. What it is now - forget it but the cardio doc just wants reps with lighter weights. Not to divert from the combatives focus.

[Leroy]

I think you would have to define combatives and the associated tasks, standard duties, and extreme situations required to be capable of performing under first . From that you would derive the needed physical aptitudes.

Combatives seems like a broad term.

[Cory]

Larry Lindenman posted about this years ago. It's not exactly a "test", but the standards therein seem like a solid benchmark if combatives are your focus.

Larry cites Dan Jon's standards as:

Push
Expected = Bodyweight bench press
Game-changer = Bodyweight bench press for 15 reps
Pull
Expected = 5 pullups
Game-changer = 15 pullups
Hinge
Expected = Bodyweight to 150% bodyweight deadlift
Game-changer = Double-bodyweight deadlift
Squat
Expected = Bodyweight squat
Game-changer = Bodyweight squat for 15 reps
Loaded Carry
Expected = Farmer walk with total bodyweight (half per hand)
Game-changer =Bodyweight per hand
Getup
One left and right, done with a half-filled cup of water

He really dives in to how that stuff translates to sport. I'm worried that article will disappear someday, because I wind up referencing it a few times a year.




Personally, I think that it depends on what Steve Anderson would call "defining your level of participation". In otherwords, how much time energy and money are you willing to expend toward your goal? You can't expect to become Gordon Ryan by going to jits once a week, and not spending any money. You have to look at what you're willing to do and then set your goal in an appropriate fashion.

A better question than "standards" is maybe, what level of physicality do I need to be able to attend a combatives seminar and walk away better prepared. What do I need to be able to do physically to learn? And honestly, I think the answer is almost nothing. You can have serious physical limitations and attend a good instructors combatives class and walk away with more capability than you walked in with.

What do I need to be reasonably capable? Against who? I like to think of TPI's Todd. In which case I still need to do better.

[Guerrero]

What do I need to be reasonably capable? Against who? I like to think of TPI's Todd. In which case I still need to do better.

My "worst case" isn't Todd, but rather some 22-year-old who works out and watches MMA all the time, trying to pick up moves/techniques, for the benefit of, er... "criminal enterprise."

Of course, there's no way to test against this, other than to say, "I'm not there."

[Cheap Shot]

My "worst case" isn't Todd, but rather some 22-year-old who works out and watches MMA all the time, trying to pick up moves/techniques, for the benefit of, er... "criminal enterprise."

Of course, there's no way to test against this, other than to say, "I'm not there."

Would reasonable testing and self awareness be gained by:

1. the annual ECQC audit?
2. training weekly in an MMA gym?
3. competing in mma, BJJ, wrestling and/or Muay Thai?
4. training, practicing and/or competing with firearms?
5. instruction in all of the above and situational awareness?

Not perfect apples to apples but best I can come up with. For the record its not something Im physically currently able to do

[Totem Polar]

Another aspect of this, for me at age 56, is: what’s really a bigger need? Out-grappling one of the local fentanyl flop shitheads, or outliving age and work-related stressors? If I’m *really* serious about all this self-defense stuff, having solid musculature laurels to rest on in another 14 years when I’m turning 70, so I can put on my socks standing without falling over and still dig a car out of a snow bank, and having enough cardio to keep things well-oiled and moving without stroking out is more important than being Marcelo Garcia. We now collectively know that a lot of “balance” problems that older people have boil down to the fact that they don’t have enough muscle to support their own kinesthetic memory of being upright.

I may be an outlier. Gassing out was never a big problem for me in BJJ or ECQC. Constantly getting injured because I was a scrawny musician in his 50s was, so my answer for combatives training priority is *a lot* more strength-oriented than someone like Larry who was probably strong enough from his college days.

Ultimately, your body will tell you what you need if you push it. For the power lifter in the linked article, some long slow cardio seems to be indicated. For me, it’s getting to that 2xbody deadlift, all the way. We know because that guy reportedly couldn’t make it through the drills, and I was always tearing something. If somebody who’s young, runs 5 miles 4x weekly and can deadlift 2x their weight is constantly getting tapped, maybe they just need an extra 6am fundamentals class and a private a week. I don’t think this is either one-size fits all, or rocket science. See your weaknesses clearly; shore them up. Simple, really. JMO.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

Larry cites Dan Jon's standards as:


He really dives in to how that stuff translates to sport. I'm worried that article will disappear someday, because I wind up referencing it a few times a year.




Personally, I think that it depends on what Steve Anderson would call "defining your level of participation". In otherwords, how much time energy and money are you willing to expend toward your goal? You can't expect to become Gordon Ryan by going to jits once a week, and not spending any money. You have to look at what you're willing to do and then set your goal in an appropriate fashion.

A better question than "standards" is maybe, what level of physicality do I need to be able to attend a combatives seminar and walk away better prepared. What do I need to be able to do physically to learn? And honestly, I think the answer is almost nothing. You can have serious physical limitations and attend a good instructors combatives class and walk away with more capability than you walked in with.

What do I need to be reasonably capable? Against who? I like to think of TPI's Todd. In which case I still need to do better.

This all day.

I’ve STOPPED thinking about what is required to enter into the COMBATIVES (meaning on the mat/ring) pre-reqs. There aren’t any/shouldn’t be any.

Think about it…I’m a 49 year old blue belt with 3.5 years of total (white to blue) experience. I have had fractured toes, a fractured metatarsal, a fractured fibula, a ruptured appendix in that time. ALL injuries which required SOME period of convalescence. So let’s say (hypothetically) I’m at the top of my game when the injury occurs. Immediately after, I’m not there anymore. And coming BACK after recovery, I’m not going to be at that same level.

On a micro level this even occurs in developing certain aspects of your game. I spent lots of time working escapes. I can say without reservation that was the strongest my core has ever been. So if there was an isolated core strength assessment on the COMBATIVES test, it follows that would be overemphasized in that phase of training.

Bottom line, martial arts is a long walk with many diversions and sidetracks. Some are unavoidable. The biggest physical attribute to develop for improvement in martial arts is presence…and consistency.


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[Sherman A. House DDS]

My "worst case" isn't Todd, but rather some 22-year-old who works out and watches MMA all the time, trying to pick up moves/techniques, for the benefit of, er... "criminal enterprise."

Of course, there's no way to test against this, other than to say, "I'm not there."

I train in a gym where these folks are. They’re not criminals, but they’re lean, fit 22 year olds who want to win, are spazzy and even at 49 years old, I can usually shut them off with superior technique and not doubling down on bad position/poor submissions. I’ll let them gas and get winded, and then dangle an arm or a neck and sub them. If they’re really in need of frustration, I’ll hug their leg and give them some deep half challenge, and then when they get weak, sweep them and smash them in SC.

That’s a worthwhile game that I THINK, judging from some of my elder teammates, I could play into my 70’s and on.


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