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Thread: returning to the range, looking for tips

  1. #81
    Site Supporter piefairy's Avatar
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    Ok, I've been back at the range for a while now, and using the Mantis X with dry fire. My groupings are getting better. This is 10 and 15y respectively. I'm still low left. I'm finally taking some advice about the ball and dummy drill and working it in. I've been hesitant because I don't get the objective. It show that I still flinch a little during the trigger press, the Mantis does not pick up much in dry fire, so its a live fire deal. Is the objective of ball and dummy to just embarrass yourself until you stop doing it? I was doing it with a 5 yard target and it seemed to just point out my flinching. I went through 8 mags, 17rnd, with 4 to 5 dummy rounds in it, then went back to shooting and didn't notice much of a difference in grouping. I know it's not magic and will take time to "work" but I am not sure how it is supposed to help.
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  2. #82
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by piefairy View Post
    Ok, I've been back at the range for a while now, and using the Mantis X with dry fire. My groupings are getting better. This is 10 and 15y respectively. I'm still low left. I'm finally taking some advice about the ball and dummy drill and working it in. I've been hesitant because I don't get the objective. It show that I still flinch a little during the trigger press, the Mantis does not pick up much in dry fire, so its a live fire deal. Is the objective of ball and dummy to just embarrass yourself until you stop doing it? I was doing it with a 5 yard target and it seemed to just point out my flinching. I went through 8 mags, 17rnd, with 4 to 5 dummy rounds in it, then went back to shooting and didn't notice much of a difference in grouping. I know it's not magic and will take time to "work" but I am not sure how it is supposed to help.
    Good work! And really good question about ball and dummy. As with most important topics about shooting, you'll get a range of opinions on P-F. Here's mine:

    Ball and dummy is best for showing the shooter that they are pushing down on the gun (pre-ignition push), not doing something wrong with the trigger. In my experience, you really can't do very much with the trigger to cause a big problem at 10 yds.

    It isn't very good at training people not to push down on the gun before/as it fires.

    Now that you understand what's going on, I recommend a modified version of Hwansik Kim's Measurement Drill for learning how to return the gun after it fires.

    Measurement Drill (3-5 yds): Fire one shot and DO NOT RETURN THE GUN. Leave it up there where recoil put it. Fire another shot. The distance between the two shots is an indication of how well you are gripping, how stiff your wrists are, etc. Don't worry about that, just do that drill until you have learned to shut off automatically returning the gun.

    Next: Fire a shot and slowly return the gun. Fire again. Repeat. If you push down on the gun, go back and do Measurement Drill some more.
    Last edited by Clusterfrack; 10-23-2024 at 07:59 PM.
    I don't speak Woke. Can you say that in English?

  3. #83
    Site Supporter piefairy's Avatar
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    I will give it a shot next time at the range. I know I don't deal with the recoil as well as I should. At least with my smaller P365, I have to regrip after every few shots and I come way off target with it. My X-5 is probably the one I'm best with, not terrible with the p320. I have to pay attention to my grip or else I will let the recoil take me off target. I suppose its still fundamentals that I need to ingrain in myself. When I tighten my grip up, I tend to get some shaking in my hands. I'm bending my elbows slightly to try and help compensate, but I find loosening up a bit makes for a more accurate shot.

    What distance should I try the Measurement Drill at? I'm afraid if its to far out, I wont be on target at all.

  4. #84
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by piefairy View Post
    I will give it a shot next time at the range. I know I don't deal with the recoil as well as I should. At least with my smaller P365, I have to regrip after every few shots and I come way off target with it. My X-5 is probably the one I'm best with, not terrible with the p320. I have to pay attention to my grip or else I will let the recoil take me off target. I suppose its still fundamentals that I need to ingrain in myself. When I tighten my grip up, I tend to get some shaking in my hands. I'm bending my elbows slightly to try and help compensate, but I find loosening up a bit makes for a more accurate shot.

    What distance should I try the Measurement Drill at? I'm afraid if its to far out, I wont be on target at all.
    3-5 yds.

    If you take slo-mo video of you shooting from the side, you can debug your recoil control. Is the gun slipping in your grip? Is your grip coming apart during recoil? Wrists not locked? Etc.

    If you have to regrip, you might try some chalk to add friction. Little guns are hard to hang onto.
    I don't speak Woke. Can you say that in English?

  5. #85
    Site Supporter piefairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    3-5 yds.

    If you take slo-mo video of you shooting from the side, you can debug your recoil control. Is the gun slipping in your grip? Is your grip coming apart during recoil? Wrists not locked? Etc.

    If you have to regrip, you might try some chalk to add friction. Little guns are hard to hang onto.
    My hands slip on the 365. They are pretty good on the x5 and the 320. My thumbs sometimes need to be reset, but my grip doesn't break. I can try to do a video but the stalls where I shoot are tiny. I appreciate the help.

  6. #86
    I think I could make a pretty good case for not worrying much about the 365. It is tiny and it is pretty much a given that the smaller the gun the harder it is to shoot well. Have you experimented w/ grip tape? You can get precut tape for specific guns or do your own. I do my own. I have found that no slip tape for steps works well. Look at different hardware stores to see what each stocks. Usually you can find one that is like black sandpaper. Also look for one that is rubbery w/ kind of a leather grain surface. Both types can use a little help from a hair dryer to wrap on compound curves. You can also use hockey stick tape but it needs to be wrapped all the way around the grip. I look at how my strong hand grips the gun and like tape on the lower half of both front and rear of the grip. For me the front is less important as far as controlling recoil, but it helps w/ drawing from my holster. Cut and install some on your pistol and take the rest w/ you to the range. When I first started experimenting w/ tape I did a lot of experimenting at the range. You don't need to make it pretty, just functional for 5-10 shots to see the effect. Once you decide where you want the tape do it over at home and make it more professional looking.

  7. #87
    Site Supporter piefairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigS View Post
    I think I could make a pretty good case for not worrying much about the 365. It is tiny and it is pretty much a given that the smaller the gun the harder it is to shoot well. Have you experimented w/ grip tape? You can get precut tape for specific guns or do your own. I do my own. I have found that no slip tape for steps works well. Look at different hardware stores to see what each stocks. Usually you can find one that is like black sandpaper. Also look for one that is rubbery w/ kind of a leather grain surface. Both types can use a little help from a hair dryer to wrap on compound curves. You can also use hockey stick tape but it needs to be wrapped all the way around the grip. I look at how my strong hand grips the gun and like tape on the lower half of both front and rear of the grip. For me the front is less important as far as controlling recoil, but it helps w/ drawing from my holster. Cut and install some on your pistol and take the rest w/ you to the range. When I first started experimenting w/ tape I did a lot of experimenting at the range. You don't need to make it pretty, just functional for 5-10 shots to see the effect. Once you decide where you want the tape do it over at home and make it more professional looking.
    I'm not terribly concerned with the 365. If I'm in that 8 ring at 10 yards, I'm ok with it. Its a carry gun and I don't see many encounters requiring it outside of that distance, though it could happen. The 320's are more for the range, especially the x5 so those I may take you up on your tape job. Again, I don't seem to lose grip on the gun but if I can cut down on how hard I have to clench the gun, resulting in less movement, it may be worth it. I've got a class coming up with Randy Cain next month, so hopefully that will help a lot as well.

  8. #88
    Site Supporter piefairy's Avatar
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    So I set the target at 5 yards and took a few shots without correcting the aim after the shot and its a 5 inch or so difference between initial POI and the second shot POI. My recoil is obviously not under control. I'm locking my wrists, and clenching the gun, the only thing I can think of is recoil anticipation but that would shot up in the ball and dummy drill would it not? The recoil is fairly consistent and I can recover fairly quickly from it since its always about the same, but I feel its still to much. Any tips?

  9. #89
    2nd shot higher or lower than the first? If it's higher, just slow down a bit. Also don't get too concerned w/ perfection, don't let it be the enemy of good enough. When we first started w/ pistols 20yrs ago we shot at indoor ranges like you do mostly at 3" dots at 30 ft. 7yrs ago when I started shooting matches and joined the local Izaak Walton club, we quit the 3" dots and started using paper plates. paper plates are easy until you pick up the speed and add in moving from one spot to another. 2 years ago wife and started shooting local pistol matches w/ me and are envious of other shooters who seem to be able to aim once and fire two shots. We have come to the realization that at our old ages we will probably never be able to do the super fast double taps. Oh well, we do the best we can w/ our kind of quick doubles. 2 years ago I got an all steel pistol and that helped quite a bit. The heavier weight helps absorb the muzzle rise. Every Nov I shoot 2 night matches. Last year I searched for a new light/laser unit and checked published weights. A Streamlight TLR2G is the heaviest so I put one on my standard aluminum frame gun. Last month I started shooting the night gun to get back used to it before this months matches. I am surprised to feel it is just as good on muzzle rise as the all steel gun. I ordered another Streamlight for my wife. She doesn't shoot night matches but lights are allowed in all matches so she will be trying her new setup in practice next week. Another thought for you, are you putting your weak hand index finger on the front of the trigger guard? I see that 320s have a real nice squared shape w/ good checkering there. In a thread here maybe a year ago someone linked to a video of Lena Micelek (Sig factory shooing team) explaining why she started doing that. makes sense to me.

  10. #90
    Site Supporter piefairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigS View Post
    2nd shot higher or lower than the first? If it's higher, just slow down a bit. Also don't get too concerned w/ perfection, don't let it be the enemy of good enough. When we first started w/ pistols 20yrs ago we shot at indoor ranges like you do mostly at 3" dots at 30 ft. 7yrs ago when I started shooting matches and joined the local Izaak Walton club, we quit the 3" dots and started using paper plates. paper plates are easy until you pick up the speed and add in moving from one spot to another. 2 years ago wife and started shooting local pistol matches w/ me and are envious of other shooters who seem to be able to aim once and fire two shots. We have come to the realization that at our old ages we will probably never be able to do the super fast double taps. Oh well, we do the best we can w/ our kind of quick doubles. 2 years ago I got an all steel pistol and that helped quite a bit. The heavier weight helps absorb the muzzle rise. Every Nov I shoot 2 night matches. Last year I searched for a new light/laser unit and checked published weights. A Streamlight TLR2G is the heaviest so I put one on my standard aluminum frame gun. Last month I started shooting the night gun to get back used to it before this months matches. I am surprised to feel it is just as good on muzzle rise as the all steel gun. I ordered another Streamlight for my wife. She doesn't shoot night matches but lights are allowed in all matches so she will be trying her new setup in practice next week. Another thought for you, are you putting your weak hand index finger on the front of the trigger guard? I see that 320s have a real nice squared shape w/ good checkering there. In a thread here maybe a year ago someone linked to a video of Lena Micelek (Sig factory shooing team) explaining why she started doing that. makes sense to me.
    Thanks for the input. I was doing this particular drill in response to @Clusterfrack and his quick shot drill he recommended.

    I'm more concerned with accuracy than speed right now like you suggest. A well placed shot is more important than many shots poorly placed. The issue I'm running into is always low and left. I've run the ball and dummy drill and I have some intermittent movement pre-shot. I have toyed with putting my finger on the front of the guard off and on. I haven't noticed a ton of difference other than my finger slipping off when I try it. I do have both an X-5 TXG and a 1911, both of which I am much better with muzzle rise. The weight does help a lot. I wonder if that is a benefit of a suppressor.

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