P30 Mods with TLG content

[GJM]

This may open a whole new can of worms for a discussion, but I consider any premature shot that goes over target's head an ND. To me it is the same as to say the sights weren't really on the target.

How is that different than a premature shot that hits the target, or a perfectly timed shot that misses the target?

[YVK]

Both of the above imply that the cardinal rule of finger off the trigger before sights are on the target wasn't factually violated . My scenario, specifically how I outlined it, is an example of an opposite.

[ToddG]

Not to be too persnickety, but in 2011 there wasn't even a single fatal US airline crash, and same for three out of the last four years.

I stand corrected and, as someone who flies quite a bit and whose wife flies even more, I am comforted to be wrong.

[Dagga Boy]

Nyeti, isn't decision making during the trigger press a function of what is between our ears, as opposed to the relatively minor difference in characteristics of the trigger, when comparing a LEM trigger to something like a factory Glock or M&P DCAEK trigger?

Its not the decision making process. If your pistol is in any way pointed at a person, you had better have made a decision that they are a lethal threat. If your finger is on the trigger, you had better have made that decision to act on that lethal threat. Now, what can happen (and has happened to me on several occasions) is that you are pressing on a subject that you very much intend to shoot and the situation will change. For most people in shootings, time will slow to a crawl and it is amazing what you can perceive. In my own case, time has slowed down to a crawl and my visual perception has increased to an incredible level. I have also found that there is often a lot of movement going on and you will be tracking that movement and it should be with the sights. It is because of my own experience that I don't tend to get onto the trigger until my sights are fully on and tracking. I could be wrong, but I am not basing this on what I think might happen, it is based on what has happened to me for real and on enough occasions that I look at it as a trend rather than an anomaly. In the case of the trigger itself, I was more aware of the "movement" of the trigger as opposed to a tactile "feel" of the trigger. Also, in the case of the situations where I was using a pistol with a hammer (and why I was probably so aware of it), was that I was using DA first round guns with exposed hammers and I could "see" my trigger press and that was a stronger sensation than the definable "feel".

[GJM]

Not sure I am following your point, without further explanation. So are you suggesting the length of the LEM trigger is an advantage because it allows you to start the firing process, and then stop it prior to breaking the shot? If so, wouldn't a DA Sig, or N frame revolver, be better yet, since their trigger press is longer and heavier than the LEM?

[Dagga Boy]

Not sure I am following your point, without further explanation. So are you suggesting the length of the LEM trigger is an advantage because it allows you to start the firing process, and then stop it prior to breaking the shot? If so, wouldn't a DA Sig, or N frame revolver, be better yet, since their trigger press is longer and heavier than the LEM?

In the case of the LEM, I am basing my thoughts on a theory. A majority of the cases I dealt with were with a N frame Smith, Sig P-220 or USP 45F with a DA/SA trigger. In a majority of the cases I distinctly remember the take up and movement and not the weight. It was far more distinct than the the shooting I had where I used a Remington 870. All of the "stopped" shootings were with longer trigger movement guns. What the LEM gives me is the take up without the weight, and a level of consistency the DA/SA doesn't have, along with a moving hammer on every shot. I used to tell folks that my 1911 was the finest close quarter gun-fighting pistol ever made (which I still believe). The problem was that I was rarely in gunfights, and the goal was always prisoner taking. I did a ton of prisoner taking and (at the time) my SIG P-220 was exceptional for this. That same Sig P-220 also delivered a perfect 10-ring crossing chest shot with instant (and I mean not enough time for a second shot INSTANT) incapacitation, without issue when I needed it to. I saw numerous in-field on demand spectacular shots made by my people with DA/SA guns once we spent the time with a ton of repetitive work with the triggers and shot pacing in line with that trigger action. Also keep in mind that competitive shooting is also a lot like gun-fighting......lots of shooting, very little prisoner taking, assessing, physically fighting while also managing a pistol, or searching, so those same characteristics that we find work well in that format also translate well to pure gun-fighting pistols. Can all of those tasks be done with a gun with a lighter trigger with less take-up....heck yea. They just have less room for error. Can a DA/SA, LEM, or DA revolver be a used effectively in a pure gunfight....heck yea. They just require more work. Take your pick of what is important to YOU and then train.

I have always had a huge level of respect for both Todd Green and Ernest Langdon as they have proven that you can run a DA/SA gun at speed and had to work harder at it. Notice that both seem to have gone to the TLG LEM as the way to go in a trigger.

[GJM]

I have always had a huge level of respect for both Todd Green and Ernest Langdon as they have proven that you can run a DA/SA gun at speed and had to work harder at it. Notice that both seem to have gone to the TLG LEM as the way to go in a trigger.

Despite his professed love for the LEM, in TLG's case, the last few years have been with a Glock and 1911 trigger. I have been quite interested in what Ernie Langdon thinks after his time with the LEM, but have heard nothing.

[Dagga Boy]

Here is Todd's recent commentary:

"My love for the H&K P30 pistol is no secret. I still consider it the single best handgun on the market today and even though I’m enjoying the heck out of the 1911, there is no comparison in terms of reliability or ease of maintenance (not to mention that my box stock P30 was actually more accurate than my 1911)."

That is after the Glock test. Notice I never contended that the LEM was a better pure shooting trigger. The TLG LEM is a very workable trigger for a daily carry gun carried for defensive use and crisis management, that also has a bunch of very solid positives in other areas.

In Ernest Langdon's case, he is not doing much on the firearms side of the industry and is working in another part of the defense industry and is carrying a pair of P30's by choice. It is the same choice I made. I carry these things by choice at this point, and I never thought I would drift away from the Glock in the 9mm platform.

[GJM]

I am pretty familiar with Todd's thinking, and to my knowledge, the last time he fired a P30 was mine, at AFHS in ABQ. I also razz him, as despite his love for the P30, I think he has less than 50 rounds thru one in the last year.

I would be very interested in Ernie's analysis of the performance loss, if any, with the P30 compared to the other platforms he is familiar with.

Nyeti, if your definition of "defensive use and crisis management" includes a really skilled guy shooting at you, would you still choose the P30 over your Glock? The only reason the Glock is my number one platform, and HK is number two, is I shoot the Glock better, especially support hand only. Wish it were different, but it isn't.

[Dagga Boy]

If I am at the point where the difference in a trigger with a Glock and a P30 is the deciding factor between me and a opponents skill level, I have screwed up badly. It has gotten to the point where my level of treachery, tactics, aggression, downright cheating has failed. The one time I was very behind the curve and nearly killed in an ambush was while using textbook tactics, I was dealing with a treacherous little gang banger who did a good job of cheating.

I probably have carried a Glock longer than most here. The guy who I tagged for life with the full imprint of the entire front end of a G-17 in the side of his head was in 1988. I wish I was carrying my N frame......

If what you are preparing for is a straight up gunfight with a highly skilled gunfighter, then use what you think is best for that. Personally, I would be expending FAR more energy into figuring out a way to counter that highly skilled gunfighter with a means of beating him or her without them every knowing I was there rather than depending on what the trigger in my pistol feels like.