Accident at USPSA

[Clusterfrack]

The gun discharged in the holster, or she got the thumb safety off early, and her finger touched the trigger early?

As I understand it, she tried to draw fast for a speed shoot type stage and got her finger on the trigger way early. Must have flicked TS off on the draw.

[GJM]

10.4.2 is interesting. A shot within ten feet of the competitor is a DQ unless the target is within ten feet. A person could put one into the ground if the target is close, as long as they don’t shoot themselves!

[bofe954]

It is a DQ when a loaded SAO gun is holstered or placed on a table or barrel without safety applied. I never thought that this rule covered drawing a gun. I don't endorse or support clicking safety off before clearing the rig but if someone comes out of an open rig with a sub-second draw, can RO realistically say when exactly that safety got disengaged? In addition, safeties look different. High ride safety on my Atlas in off position looks like a conventional safety in on position, I've an ironic story about one local gunsmith.
Anyway, I thought that rule only meant a DQ for not applying TS after chambering a round. Anyone can clarify?

Short answer, the safety needs to be on when gun is holstered, the definition of holstered is in the glossary.

https://nroi.org/rules-insights/safeties-and-you/

You walk up to the line, your gun is holstered, but not loaded. You don't need the safety on.

You are told to make ready, you insert a magazine and chamber a round. Your gun is loaded, but not holstered, you don't need the safety on. You can do your sight pictures, whatever, with your safety off if you want (although I wouldn't).

You go to holster your gun, if you do not put the safety on before you holster, you could be DQ'd.

You put your safety on, on your loaded gun, and you holster. All is well. If you stand there looking at the stage flicking your safety on and off, you should be DQ'd.

Your gun is holstered, as part of your draw you push the web of your of your hand down into the grip safety and as you build your grip you push the safety off with your thumb, then you start drawing the gun and your trigger guard clears your holster, you should be DQ'd.

It isn't easy to catch. Sometimes with electronic ear pro you can hear the safety come off. Sometimes it's a multi string stage and they think it's happening. On draw two or three the RO is squatting watching the draw with the timer held up.

The RO is supposed to be watching the gun, most of the time they don't, they are just sort of spectators with a timer.

[YVK]

Thanks for the explanation and the link. Based on the definition of gun being drawn


the gun is drawn when the trigger guard/trigger is accessible. Draw—The point at which a handgun is removed or disengaged from the holster so as to allow access to any portion of the interior of the trigger guard.

I simply don't see how this is enforceable, especially with the block type race rigs. "Any portion of" interior of trigger guard becomes accessible in a proverbial nanosecond, thus making a gun "drawn". Unless the shooter is blatantly obvious with his ts manipulations AND glacially slow with his draw, I think that all premature disengagers are pretty safe from DQ.

I actually watch people work their TS, whether I'm ROing or just watching, simply out of morbid curiosity. I can never say but I feel like majority hits those guns so fast and hard that TS comes off near instantly.

[wmu12071]

I understand that it is a rules issue mainly but can someone explain why it is ok to have super light and short striker fired triggers with no safety but not hammer fired guns with the safety off? What if someone built a gun with a 1.5 lbs trigger with .1" travel that was striker with no safety? Is that ok because it never had a safety and it doesn't have a hammer?

Just to pick a popular gun, why are we ok with 320s without safeties or M&Ps? What is the theoretical line in the sand? Is it an amount of travel? A minimum weight? Both?

[YVK]

This is USPSA; attempts to find logic are often times futile. IPSC requires minimum of 3 lbs pull on striker guns.
Some technological push back does exist as 1.5 lbs strikers with no pretravel etc usually don't run and also lose internal safeties, which is prohibited.

[Lon]

Just so everyone is clear on things, this is the type of holster in question:



In 30+ years of shooting USPSA I’ve never seen anyone DQ’d for thumbing down a safety as they acquire their grip.

[Bucky]

I understand that it is a rules issue mainly but can someone explain why it is ok to have super light and short striker fired triggers with no safety but not hammer fired guns with the safety off? What if someone built a gun with a 1.5 lbs trigger with .1" travel that was striker with no safety? Is that ok because it never had a safety and it doesn't have a hammer?

Just to pick a popular gun, why are we ok with 320s without safeties or M&Ps? What is the theoretical line in the sand? Is it an amount of travel? A minimum weight? Both?

Yeah, they have been allowing more and more allowances for the striker fired pistols over the years.

[mmc45414]

I understand that it is a rules issue mainly but can someone explain why it is ok to have super light and short striker fired triggers with no safety but not hammer fired guns with the safety off?

I agree, IMO this is a TS discussion about a holster problem. It absolutely coulda/woulda happened with a striker gun, and it wouldn't need to be modified, the video imbedded in the article clearly shows the holster pulling the covered trigger. However proper use of the TS should have prevented his holster from shooting him in his leg.

ETA Rant:
I have not done much USPSA since I was the young punk in my avitar pic, but the two local multigun matches I do monthly I have seen a few DQs for dropping guns out of holsters, coincidently both last month. These stages typically require long gun shooting and movement before the pistol is drawn, and maybe you need a little more security than if you draw first thing at the buzzer. I use a JMCK R/C, not exactly a skeleton race rig, but I do admit I borrowed a screwdriver and cranked it down even tighter after watching one of the good shooters and ROs DQ on the first stage he was shooting that day.

[Jim Watson]

In 30+ years of shooting USPSA I’ve never seen anyone DQ’d for thumbing down a safety as they acquire their grip.

It would be kind of hard to spot with all the other stuff the RO is doing... as long as it doesn't go off.

A holster maker of my acquaintance offers a 3-gun holster that is more enveloping and less likely to lose the pistol while you are running with a long gun.

Many years ago I saw a post, uh magazine article, that is, about a guy who was shooting early IPSC with a Luger.
He had built up the sear bar and made a holster with a rigid aluminum frame that held the sear bar down. So the gun was locked when holstered, live immediately when drawn.