Real World Penetration? Critical Duty how often Real World does it fail to expand

[Dov]

"Aggressive action by a determined adversary can be stopped reliably and immediately using a handgun only by a shot that disrupts the brain or upper spinal cord. Even the most disruptive heart wound cannot be relied upon to prevent aggression before 10 to 15 seconds has elapsed.

"Given this limitation, massive bleeding from holes in the heart or major blood vessels in the torso causing circulatory collapse is the fastest and only other reliable mechanism available to the handgun user."

--Martin L. Fackler, M.D., WOUND BALLISTIC WORKSHOP; FBI ACADEMY; September 15 - 17, 1987; "9MM VS .45 AUTO"

Pretty simple, eh?

Nothing's changed since.

Placement plus penetration are the keys to rapid incapacitation.

Never sacrifice adequate penetration for a little more expansion.

The shooting of SC Trooper Mark Coates is an excellent example of "what you hit is more important than what you hit with." Coates was shot with a .22 mini revolver. The bullet cut a great vessel. He collapsed onto the pavement of I-95 20 seconds after being hit. This, after he shot his assailant, Richard Blackburn, 5 times with .38 Special +P.

On the subject of what is hit (placement) is the performance of 22 rimfire in assassination attempt on Regan from handgun on three people detailed in Rawhide Down https://www.amazon.com/Rawhide-Down-.../dp/080509346X

[Dov]

OK thank you much, appreciate any real world knowledge I can gain on the subject. If there are any particular old threads that dump a lot of your observations please let me know what to search for. Thank you and goodnight.

BehindBlueI's has a lot of posts & threads worth reading & bookmarkings, still respectfully encouraging him to get a book published, here are some of the ones I have bookmarked:

How People lost Random Encounter Gun Fights, beginning of very good trhead
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ter-Gun-Fights

Shotgun vs Rifles & how factors of winning/losing remain same
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....s-rifles/page4

Winning vs Losing ie Tactics
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....l=1#post925059

Effectiveness of pocket snub
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....n-Fights/page2

What not to do with longgun
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....l=1#post925047
&
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....=1#post1284463

The Case for Assessment Pause
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....sessment-pause

Home Defense Weapon type %
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....=1#post1030153



Somewhat related thread BBI's post is on page 2 but lot of good discussion in thread IMO
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....out-these-days

[BehindBlueI's]

OK thank you much, appreciate any real world knowledge I can gain on the subject. If there are any particular old threads that dump a lot of your observations please let me know what to search for. Thank you and goodnight.

Search function here sucks ass. I'd mostly just point you to all the stickies from DocGKR at the top of this subforum.

I gave up tracking caliber and cartridge in outcomes due to the wide variation in shot placement, will to fight of the offender, etc. So many variables that have nothing to do with the bullet. This is not to say bullet construction and cartridge selection is irrelevant (though it often is, when it matters it matters). Just it's not a huge mover of the needle on who wins and who loses. I completely get wanting to know just for the sake of wanting to know, though, and DocGKR's posts are a wealth of info in both real world and academic discussion.

[Ghost Dog]

BehindBlueI's has a lot of posts & threads worth reading & bookmarkings, still respectfully encouraging him to get a book published, here are some of the ones I have bookmarked:

How People lost Random Encounter Gun Fights, beginning of very good trhead
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ter-Gun-Fights

Shotgun vs Rifles & how factors of winning/losing remain same
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....s-rifles/page4

Winning vs Losing ie Tactics
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....l=1#post925059

Effectiveness of pocket snub
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....n-Fights/page2

What not to do with longgun
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....l=1#post925047
&
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....=1#post1284463

The Case for Assessment Pause
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....sessment-pause

Home Defense Weapon type %
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....=1#post1030153



Somewhat related thread BBI's post is on page 2 but lot of good discussion in thread IMO
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....out-these-days

Thank you going through them now!

[Kanye Wyoming]

.357 magnum from a duty sized barrel or up, I've yet to see one stay in a human.

[jd950]

.357 magnum from a duty sized barrel or up, I've yet to see one stay in a human. They expand just fine, but they keep on trucking. .45 and 9mm they expand and typically stay inside the person or their clothing on the back end. Don't have any real sample size of any others. Don't know I've ever seen a pocket caliber CD used in the real world.

I agree about the .357 overall, and one example means little, but FWIW, I can personally vouch for one situation in which a torso shot with a 125gr federal .357 from a 4" S&W model 19 at about 7 yards did remain in the recipient.

[BehindBlueI's]

I agree about the .357 overall, and one example means little, but FWIW, I can personally vouch for one situation in which a torso shot with a 125gr federal .357 from a 4" S&W model 19 at about 7 yards did remain in the recipient.

The first lines of my response were specific to Critical Duty.

[jd950]

The first lines of my response were specific to Critical Duty.

Missed that. Sorry for my mistake.

[Ghost Dog]

I agree about the .357 overall, and one example means little, but FWIW, I can personally vouch for one situation in which a torso shot with a 125gr federal .357 from a 4" S&W model 19 at about 7 yards did remain in the recipient.

And that seems to have been the best respected and hottest of those 125 gr sjhp loads yet FBI testing was 11.7" of heavy clothing penetration which makes you wonder. The round that was often described as having instant behavior changes in perps as if "hit by a lightning bolt".

Was there an immediate reaction of recipient shot where as they immediately realized they had been shot & psychological or physical reaction to such?

Thank you

[Shawn Dodson]

And that seems to have been the best respected and hottest of those 125 gr sjhp loads yet FBI testing was 11.7" of heavy clothing penetration which makes you wonder. The round that was often described as having instant behavior changes in perps as if "hit by a lightning bolt".

Was there an immediate reaction of recipient shot where as they immediately realized they had been shot & psychological or physical reaction to such?

Thank you

I've heard a hypothesis, from either Darryl Bolke, John Hearne, or Chuck Haggard, on a podcast somewhere, that somebody associated with California Highway Patrol looked into CHP shootings when it issued .357 Magnum.

It was discovered that the "bolt of lightning effect" seemed to take place in times of low light and at close distance.

The hypothesis is that older .357 Magnum loads had no flash retardant, so at close distance, the combined effects of the cannon-like KABOOM!! of the muzzle blast plus the large muzzle flash was like a flash/bang grenade going off in the perp's face, causing a psychological reaction.

I have no idea if this "flash/bang" hypothesis is true or not, but it sounds reasonable, given what we know about the typical wound profile of .357 Magnum 125gr SJHP from the days of yore.