In addition to the big scary noise and bright flash it could be that a 125 grain hollow point violently fragmenting at less than 12 to 18 inches but still going deep enough to shred some organs puts people down decisively. There's more than one person on this board who seems to have used that load to good effect.
It just doesn't work reliably enough compared to more modern loads that perform better across a wider range of scenarios.
Unless the bullet disrupts the spinal cord, hits to the torso take time for blood loss to take effect - 10-15 seconds if the heart is completely destroyed, according to informed medical opinion.Originally Posted by MK11
[QUOTE=MK11;1573486]In addition to the big scary noise and bright flash it could be that a 125 grain hollow point violently fragmenting at less than 12 to 18 inches but still going deep enough to shred some organs puts people down decisively. There's more than one person on this board who seems to have used that load to good effect.
It just doesn't work reliably enough compared to more modern loads that perform better across a wider range of scenarios.[/QUOT
125 gr sjh Federal 11.7" Winchester 12.3" 4 layer Organic. Expansion nothing more than modern 9mm loads.
Yet as you say, even on this board, many found it worked decisively well. If anyone willing to share more or where I can find that it is of interest. If only looking at the shallow Pen and moderate exp then on paper it should have just been so so. Yet, it certainly was better than that by all accounts. Going by FBI data, the 158s should have been far better stoppers, and while those certainly were not bad, the 125s seemed to rule the day once they took over unless barrier penetration was needed.
Yes, I believe even up to 20% fragging is ok, for a Civilian Context, this load, or 9bple/115+p+ should still work just fine for civilians.
LE are far more likely to deal with vehicles and shooting through walls etc.
Last edited by Ghost Dog; 04-25-2024 at 09:19 PM.
8-15 sec
But, a .357 that frags some and at that velocity is actually contributing some...some to the wound path especially first few inches...so 1. Faster blood loss then a slower projectile 2. In a frontal shot some of that frag could nick vitals....heart is 7.9" on avg of all angles....so 6" straight on?
A bigger expanded bullet is also more likely to nick something vitals. The quarter of a .58 may just miss that Aorta or major artery, meanwhile the quarter, say bottom right quarter to visualize, of a .72 or .90, that quarter of that side may hit it. Even without it, for None CNS/None Heart shots the bigger bullet is still the radius squared through the entire wound path. It doesn't matter if hard to eyeball at one location or cross section, it's difference is through the entire path. That's anywhere from 1.3-1.6x comparing same hollow points .40 to 9mm, and 1.6 to over 2x .45 to 9mm. Faster blood loss, outside of CNS, that's what matters.
Even fmj .45 is 62% more than 9mm according to Dr. Fackler. .40 fmj fp splits that difference but then actually would do a good bit more being a half wadcutter flat Point at the front though over penetration is a concern though a benefit if for woods animal defense.
I missed this when it was first posted, but wasnt this claimed ME person outed as a complete fraud some time ago? Not an ME, not in the location claimed, not a witness to effects of the level of shootings claimed? Persons checking stated no place had the claimed levels of carnage, nor people in the business had no knowledge of this person?
“Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat.”
― Theodore Roosevelt
Oh yes, that guy was proven to be a fraud.
Ed, thanks for that, as I was nit aware!
I recall a discussion here some time ago on the flash-bang effect and I agreed it was a factor in those “one shot stops” law enforcement and others hung our hats on. One of the anecdotes I associate came from Jim Cirillo’s book. One of their stakeout squad shot a short barrel shotgun at a subject at close range. Bad guy drops and is screaming for help or medical. He thought he was dying. But he hadn’t been hit at all.
Myself also. Me and a friend from high school worked at an indoor range in the early 90s, and we were obsessed with 2-3" .357 mags then. Later on I added in 3" .44 mags and then 3" .327 mags. On the indoor range it was not uncommon for everybody there to stop shooting and walk over to see what was making all that noise and concussion. A 2" 640-1 with Remington 125 JHP or a 3" 29 with 180 JSP would just shut everything down on the line for a few minutes, and everybody wanted to see them and a few would want to shoot them. The 3" .327 with Amer Eagle 100 jsp would just run people out of that side of the range.
Now I have sore thumbs and need hearing aids, and shoot wadcutters in snubbies...
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