Zeroing is an Ongoing Process?

[JCL]

...@Cdub_NW, @JCL any thoughts?

Nothing to add, but danger close with un-tweaked guns was especially interesting in light of this conversation.

[Clusterfrack]

Nothing to add, but danger close with un-tweaked guns was especially interesting in light of this conversation.

Wow... really adjusting your zero on the fly.

[JCL]

Wow... really adjusting your zero on the fly.

Especially given the complexity of shooting through an 8K’ column of winds constantly changing direction relative to the axis of the barrel as they orbit the target.

[okie john]

The context of mine involved decades of high level shooters experiencing 1/2- 2+ moa shifts in zero between 200 standing and 200 rapid sitting BUT they were using irons (more head position susceptibility, call it parallax if you want for sake of conversation) AND they are using their body solely for support with radically different buttplate / shoulder interface between positions along with differential placement of head on stock and probably most importantly often vary different amounts of cant on the gun for stability between standing and sitting BUT they are doing it consistently.

Are we talking NRA Service Rifle where shooters typically use a sling in every position other than standing?


Okie John

[MickAK]

'Works for me' is kind of a Horseshoe Theory thing between the unskilled and the highly skilled.

[Trigger]

I spent some time exploring Kraft data driven training by Chris Way.



I discovered that my rifle shoots to a different zero based on shooting off a bipod and rear bag, compared to shooting off just a front and rear bag. Same effect with a tripod and hog-saddle versus an ARCA clamp.

What I learned is that it important to be consistent in how you hold/drive the rifle between various shooting positions. After that, practice and repetitions matter. I need more practice on moving into position and preparing to fire than I do practice just pulling the trigger.

Now when I go shooting, I add some positional practice from: standing barricade + bag, kneeling barricade + bag, seated barricade + bag, prone + bipod & rear bag. Timed. 2 shots each position, 8 shots total. Usually several reps of this drill.

Then I can compare my results against shooting seated at the bench. How much does my zero change? How much do my groups open up? Did I rush? Yank the trigger? Move poorly? How was my follow through and impact spotting?

So much to practice.

[Skinner Precision, LLC]

Are we talking NRA Service Rifle where shooters typically use a sling in every position other than standing?


Okie John

Nra match rifle (tubb guns / tube guns/ ar based space guns), yes the sling is used in sitting and not offhand but the sling is not the issue on these rifles for the zero change. The same thing is seen in ISSF position shooting @ 50m rimfire and 300m centerfire events as both prone and kneeling are sling supported and there are zero changes here also.

Most serious issf shooters keep 3 rear sights: one for offhand, one for prone, one for kneeliing so they dont have a chance of screwing up a change over between positions. I am a ,older , fatter, non-serious 3p shooter nowadays so I get by with one rear sight and one buttplate for my anschutz....

[Clusterfrack]

...Then I can compare my results against shooting seated at the bench...

Good post. Bench is the one thing I don't do, because it's a useless position for the kind of shooting I do. And I suck at it. My zeros are from prone, and then I have constant work and practice to make my 'positional' shooting as close to that as possible. Each position comes with its own challenges, and I've noticed patterns (how reticle lifts & POI shift) that happen when my technique isn't right. E.g. high, right off a tripod if the gun is too high.

[Cdub_NW]

Interesting topic. I'm going to send a possibly spicy response below!

A confirmed zero is important in all guns, and essential in precision rifle shooting.

@Cdub_NW, @JCL any thoughts?

Wow, lots to consider here. I am of the opinion that there are two types of zeros in play at all times. There is the mechanical zero which can only be achieved through an extremely steady rest, repeatable firing mechanics and ammo that is consistent. We see this in the rifle world but it holds true for carbines that are zero'd on a bench or in a very stable repeatable prone position. Similar to the example @clustfrack gave with his precision setup. The ammo is a key player there. Lighting conditions shouldn't play too much of an influence but atmospherics would.

I see this in 100% of rifles classes I teach. Nearly everyone who arrives at a class "zero'd" will be making adjustments, most commonly due to a change in the ammo they are training with that class or even that day. I was in vegas recently at a class and one guy had 3 different types of ammo, he chased his zero all damn day... But I agree fully that adjustments would need to be made when ammo changes, safe to say we can all generally agree on that.

The second type of zero we see is how that system/setup impacts without that stable & repeatable platform when it is just the shooter... This is an entirely different conversation. One that likely is more fluid based on how the user is performing and implementing the shot process. That being said, I am always leaning towards zeroing with your mechanical zero and fixing the user implemented errors vs adjusting the zero to match the users induced issues.

From the OP video that started this, the ability to call one's shot during this process is important. As the shooter develops their skills, it becomes easier and easier of a process to know if your system is zero'd or if it is you delivering poor input into the shot sequence. Thus not having to chase your zero all day...