And wear on the cylinder notches.Originally Posted by okie john
And wear on the cylinder notches.
Bad ideas, brilliant execution
Criticize less, compliment more
Someone found this gem of Bill Jordan doing some fast draw hip shooting. There's even a slow motion video capture of a quick draw in it at around the 3:55-4:00 mark:
I'll pull out the part that caught my eye as a still shot:
That's the blank or wax bullet being fired. It happens again in the gun-on-Bill demonstration at 4:19.
I encourage watching the slow motion draw a few times. Note how the muzzle moves during the presentation.
Point being that even Bill Jordan...who invested more time and effort into the practice than anyone else I can think of...got it wrong sometimes.
So if he can mess it up under stress...
There's also a good lesson in there about how much the gun interferes with vision with his demonstration of palming a J frame (because Bill's hands were so huge he could do that sort of thing) from left to right hand at right about the exact height the LAPD officer's gun would be blocking vision of it.
Last edited by TCinVA; 04-22-2024 at 10:31 AM.
3/15/2016
I remember shooting with my law enforcement friends back in the mid-70s. They used to practice hip shooting.
Just some thoughts and experiences gained over the 26+ years I trained & served as a LE firearms instructor ... (In other words, nobody's 'expert')
"Hip" shooting can cover a range of 1-handed techniques where the weapon is below the normal sight plane. Being able to see the barrel alignment in your peripheral vision allows to index and orient the muzzle (align without windage problem), and the grip can mitigate elevation issues. The distance can affect practical accuracy, and close quarters includes concerns regarding weapon retention/grabs.
Depending on the distance, indexing the weapon may shift from being adjacent to the hip (to your side), or moved slightly forward to being in front, putting it in alignment with the body's 'centerline' ... and the postural positioning needs of the moment, meaning the situation and circumstances, may also affect the shooting hand's position, and hence the relationship of the muzzle to the intended target.
The 'average' skilled defensive handgunner will probably find that 1-3yds is the practical range to learn the nuances of 'hip/point' shooting, although some people can push it to 5yds with controllable, good results. Depends. Elevating the weapon starts to shift things from 'hip' to upwards of going toward 'point shoulder'. The proximity of the 'threat' and the concern of losing a weapon to an attacker's grab, also affects these things.
Some LE 'close combat' methods taught have involved 'locking' the gun hand's elbow against the holster. Changes in the shooting 'stance' and a shift in the direction of the pelvic girdle can shift the muzzle, though, for good or ill. Think about stumbling and how it might change your foot (and hip) position? What will that do to your weapon orientation if your gun hand elbow is wedded to your hip? Hint: Do you hand someone a hot up of coffee that way? Or, do you reach it toward them, according to the needs of the relative positioning of you both? Think about how the reach of your hand changes according to the distance involved while handing someone a hot cup of coffee.
Lifting the elbow away from the hip, while still indexing the muzzle to the desired POA without using the 'aid' of elbow/holster/hip contact, seemed best aided by the shooter being able to gain at least some visual awareness of the weapon's slide/barrel in their peripheral vision. We tested and demonstrated this to our people by having them perform their desired 'close combat/hip' shooting at close range, and then had them repeat it while a target backboard was held just in front of them, positioned horizontally (facing up/down), so they were prevented from having any visual awareness of their weapon during the draw, presentation and firing. The cardboard simply cut off their ability to 'see' their weapon in their lower peripheral vision.
Many of them were surprised that their accuracy was lost when they lost the ability to see their gun hand and weapon. They apparently hadn't been aware of how much they'd relied upon being able to see their weapon in the bottom of the their visual field, and had unconsciously used that visual image to align their muzzle to the intended target.
Other shooters weren't affected by not being able to see their weapons hidden below the cardboard. They had developed their grip, draw & presentation and balanced posture to enable them to make hits even if they couldn't 'see' their gun hand and weapon at the bottom of their sight plane. (Think about conditions of darkness, too.
So, is some amount of visual awareness of the weapon needed to consistently and accurately orient the muzzle on the intended target? Might depend on your skill and what you've been trained to be able to do. Then, remember that varying conditions of light and darkness may have a significant influence. Hint: Does your balance change if you try to walk across a familiar floor in a room in the dark, compared to doing it in normal lighting?
These things are best taught, explained and discussed when someone experienced in them is working with lesser experienced and skilled shooters, and the context (purpose of the training, and conditions introduced) are set forth from the beginning. Safety requires constant attention. It's never a good thing for someone to unintentionally sweep part of themselves while being so focused on something that they loose awareness of everything the rest of their body may be doing. Something as 'simple' as a change in posture or balance can lend itself to potential safety problems, which is why having some 'outside eyes' available can be a good thing.
Just some thoughts. I haven't had my second cup of coffee yet.
FWIW, since my range sessions occur at my former agency's range, I can always include some 'close quarters' 1-handed shooting with my pistols and my revolvers. I like to perform additional assessment drills to keep an eye on my 'hip' shooting skills. Sometimes I them 'cold', and sometimes I save them for the end of the session. Most of the usual courses-of-fire used for duty, off-duty & LEOSA quals include some 3yd hip shooting, as well. By the time the distance is lengthened to 5yds, there's time and a spacial cushion available for using 2 hands, as well as going to for sight picture or sight alignment, or the now-current duty RDS. Accuracy is a critical 'must' for precision shots, meaning a failure-to-stop CNS shot to the cranial vault.
Last edited by fastbolt; 06-01-2024 at 03:13 PM.
And here is the result of what must have been a ton of practice with stationary targets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ2dOsH5ggo
"Rich," the Old Man said dreamily, "is a little whiskey to drink and some food to eat and a roof over your head and a fish pole and a boat and a gun and a dollar for a box of shells." Robert Ruark
That balloon double was insane.
That’s natural talent and a ton of practice.
But it’s also close range, stationary with stationary targets that have been practiced over and over and over.
Just because it’s a carnival trick doesn’t mean it’s easy.
As I understand they use blanks - so plenty of stuff to shred Styrofoam and pop balloons.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not belittling, he still draws and fires in that amount of time and he has to be pretty much on target for the balloons to pop.
Adding nothing to the conversation since 2015....
A couple classic "Close Contact" shots from retention.
https://youtu.be/oEFPcljAXgs?feature=shared
https://youtu.be/lfgQWvhu8s4?feature=shared
I have practiced this thousands of times over the decades with airsoft and laser and occasionally live fire. It is another tool in the toolbox.
Dennis
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It can be difficult to learn (and safely teach). Absolutely. It didn't happen overnight when I was learning the nuances of it as a younger firearms instructor. I'd not necessarily call it, in general, a 'carnival trick', though. Not unless we're talking about SA wheelguns and popping balloons.
However, if someone has good hand/eye coordination and balance, and they can begin to reach to hand a hot cup of coffee to someone, or begin reaching to shake hands with someone - even when there's some movement involved between the participants - indexing the hand/forearm for a 'hip' draw & presentation against the centerline of the other person can draw upon elements of those other physical skills that have been performed for most of the years of the average person's teen and adult life.
Lots of attention to make sure nothing of the shooter is swept by the muzzle, of course, especially when the technique may have to be done during bodily twisting, rotation and what might end up being oblique positioning. Similar to the safety concerns involved in teaching someone how to perform a 1-handed 'hip/close combat' response while at the same time using their non-dominant hand and arm for a blocking/shielding action. Fast movement and close contact conditions require very close awareness and attention to muzzle safety.
This is one of the many gun-handling/shooting skills arguably best learned and refined under the skilled, experienced and careful eyes of someone trained to do and teach it.
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