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Thread: Yet Another Bullpup Falls To The M4... Tavor to be replaced

  1. #11
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    I keep waffling on selling my AUG. However, I will probably be keeping it because I have a good supply of Waffle mags. But the AR just feels right.

  2. #12
    Four String Fumbler Joe in PNG's Avatar
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    I would love an Aug, but I can't afford to shoot the rifles I already have enough to justify one.
    "You win 100% of the fights you avoid. If you're not there when it happens, you don't lose." - William Aprill
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  3. #13
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    I do know that similar proclamations have come out before and turned out not to be true. The Gaza operation sort of seems perfect for the TAVOR, but I am just a hick with a keyboard.

  4. #14
    I Demand Pie Lex Luthier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Bell View Post
    I do know that similar proclamations have come out before and turned out not to be true. The Gaza operation sort of seems perfect for the TAVOR, but I am just a hick with a keyboard.
    We should be able to view open source images of units known to field the Tavor presently and compare to images of the same units this time next year.
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  5. #15
    Member helothar's Avatar
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    Interested to hear the experiences of Ukrainians with the Tavor. I just watched the documentary 20 days in mariupol and the journalists were evacuated by a Ukrainian team where several were using the Tavor (sans suppressors iirc)

  6. #16
    In looking at some news articles, one problem that the Isreali forces had with the Tavor is that some reservists who only had training with the Tavor were called up for service and issues M-16s, which they had no familiarity with. Since Israel has many more M-16s in service than Tavors, the easiest thing to do is to go to a straight M-16 force.

    It looks like I will be keeping the Tavor. I equipped it with a Holosun 503R optic that has an circle dot reticle, took it shooting, and decided that I liked it. I have long been a bullpup fan. I have a Steyr AUG and previously had an FN FS2000 bullpup. I like the compactness for a gun that has a 16" barrel, and I like the balance with the weight towards the rear. I find having the center of gravity in the rear to be less tiresome. The Tavor is just plain fun to shoot. I also like the feel of the gun. I know that is hard to quantify.

    This is my first Holosun optic. I realize that it isn't likely as reliable or durable as Aimpoints that I have on many other guns and uppers, but in this case I wanted to test out a gun that I wasn't sure that I would keep. The optic was about $210 ordered from Midway.

    The Tavor that I have is the SAR model which is the older one that preceded the Tavor X95, which is what is now imported and similar to the ones in use by Israeli forces. A big difference between the Tavor that I own and the newer X95 models is that the newer models have the mag release as a button just above the trigger guard while the older Sar model has the mag release in the form of a lever in front of the magazine well. Below is a picture of my Tavor below my AUG with red arrows pointing to the mag release and the bolt release on the Tavor and the mag release on the AUG:

    Name:  AUG and Tavor to post - Copy.jpg
Views: 293
Size:  101.1 KB

    The newer Tavor X95 models also have a different trigger guard, more rail space, and a charging handle that is further back and easier to access. The US semi-auto ones also have a different trigger pack with a lighter trigger pull. The older SAR models came from the factory with a very heavy trigger. I bought my Tavor used, and it came with a Geissele trigger pack and trigger--which by themselves is about $450. The trigger is probably about 3 lbs and is lighter than I would like it.

    In taking my shooting I noticed that it has more recoil than a DI AR. This is no doubt due to the long piston gas system. I also noticed that I could feel the action moving through the stock. I never noticed this with my AUG or with the FN FS2000 that I owned.

    I also found that it was much harder to seat magazines in the Tavor than it is with my AUG or was with my FS2000. I think the Tavor's magazine well is too busy with the bolt release right behind it. If you compare it to the mag well of the AUG in the picture above you can see that the AUG's magazine well is more streamlined. I have gotten quite good with the AUG with speed reloads by using the new magazine to hit the magazine release and then knock the empty magazine out of the way and seat the new magazine. I can do it faster than I can read the previous sentence.

    But the Tavor's magazine release that is located behind the magazine well is awkward to hit. This applies to the model I have and the newer model. Maybe if you train someone from scratch with this system it might be different. But for me it did not feel as intuitive as the AUG or FS2000. I am sure some Israeli gun designers were trying to be innovative, but I don't think the loading or reloading process is smooth or intuitive.

    I can see someone using this as a home defense gun when you are working with a gun that is already loaded and it is only a matter of disengaging the safety. It has a short size with a 16" barrel. If it is already loaded with a 30 round magazine, reloads would probably not be an issue. But as soon as reloads come into the equation, it is a different story.

    Another thing that I noticed is that when field stripped, it is much harder to access the chamber for cleaning than it is with an AUG or FS2000.

    I imagine if I were an Israeli citizen--especially in a dangerous area I would be overjoyed to be able to own this gun (especially since Israeli citizens are generally limited to only own 1 handgun). But with all of the choices available in the US, this definitely would not be my first one. Nonetheless, it is still a fun gun to shoot so I will probably be hanging onto this one at least for the time being.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed L View Post
    In looking at some news articles, one problem that the Isreali forces had with the Tavor is that some reservists who only had training with the Tavor were called up for service and issues M-16s, which they had no familiarity with. Since Israel has many more M-16s in service than Tavors, the easiest thing to do is to go to a straight M-16 force.

    It looks like I will be keeping the Tavor. I equipped it with a Holosun 503R optic that has an circle dot reticle, took it shooting, and decided that I liked it. I have long been a bullpup fan. I have a Steyr AUG and previously had an FN FS2000 bullpup. I like the compactness for a gun that has a 16" barrel, and I like the balance with the weight towards the rear. I find having the center of gravity in the rear to be less tiresome. The Tavor is just plain fun to shoot. I also like the feel of the gun. I know that is hard to quantify.

    This is my first Holosun optic. I realize that it isn't likely as reliable or durable as Aimpoints that I have on many other guns and uppers, but in this case I wanted to test out a gun that I wasn't sure that I would keep. The optic was about $210 ordered from Midway.

    The Tavor that I have is the SAR model which is the older one that preceded the Tavor X95, which is what is now imported and similar to the ones in use by Israeli forces. A big difference between the Tavor that I own and the newer X95 models is that the newer models have the mag release as a button just above the trigger guard while the older Sar model has the mag release in the form of a lever in front of the magazine well. Below is a picture of my Tavor below my AUG with red arrows pointing to the mag release and the bolt release on the Tavor and the mag release on the AUG:

    Name:  AUG and Tavor to post - Copy.jpg
Views: 293
Size:  101.1 KB

    The newer Tavor X95 models also have a different trigger guard, more rail space, and a charging handle that is further back and easier to access. The US semi-auto ones also have a different trigger pack with a lighter trigger pull. The older SAR models came from the factory with a very heavy trigger. I bought my Tavor used, and it came with a Geissele trigger pack and trigger--which by themselves is about $450. The trigger is probably about 3 lbs and is lighter than I would like it.

    In taking my shooting I noticed that it has more recoil than a DI AR. This is no doubt due to the long piston gas system. I also noticed that I could feel the action moving through the stock. I never noticed this with my AUG or with the FN FS2000 that I owned.

    I also found that it was much harder to seat magazines in the Tavor than it is with my AUG or was with my FS2000. I think the Tavor's magazine well is too busy with the bolt release right behind it. If you compare it to the mag well of the AUG in the picture above you can see that the AUG's magazine well is more streamlined. I have gotten quite good with the AUG with speed reloads by using the new magazine to hit the magazine release and then knock the empty magazine out of the way and seat the new magazine. I can do it faster than I can read the previous sentence.

    But the Tavor's magazine release that is located behind the magazine well is awkward to hit. This applies to the model I have and the newer model. Maybe if you train someone from scratch with this system it might be different. But for me it did not feel as intuitive as the AUG or FS2000. I am sure some Israeli gun designers were trying to be innovative, but I don't think the loading or reloading process is smooth or intuitive.

    I can see someone using this as a home defense gun when you are working with a gun that is already loaded and it is only a matter of disengaging the safety. It has a short size with a 16" barrel. If it is already loaded with a 30 round magazine, reloads would probably not be an issue. But as soon as reloads come into the equation, it is a different story.

    Another thing that I noticed is that when field stripped, it is much harder to access the chamber for cleaning than it is with an AUG or FS2000.

    I imagine if I were an Israeli citizen--especially in a dangerous area I would be overjoyed to be able to own this gun (especially since Israeli citizens are generally limited to only own 1 handgun). But with all of the choices available in the US, this definitely would not be my first one. Nonetheless, it is still a fun gun to shoot so I will probably be hanging onto this one at least for the time being.
    I’m a little confused by your description of reloading, and the location of the controls on the Tavor…
    Above the photo you wrote
    “ A big difference between the Tavor that I own and the newer X95 models is that the newer models have the mag release as a button just above the trigger guard while the older Sar model has the mag release in the form of a lever in front of the magazine well.”

    And below the photo you wrote
    “ But the Tavor's magazine release that is located behind the magazine well is awkward to hit. This applies to the model I have and the newer model.”

    This has me questioning which arrow is the bolt release and which is the mag release. And wondering how (mechanically) the mag release button could be located above the trigger guard (on the newer guns) and activate a latch way back at the mag well…

  8. #18
    Site Supporter Odin Bravo One's Avatar
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by helothar View Post
    Interested to hear the experiences of Ukrainians with the Tavor. I just watched the documentary 20 days in mariupol and the journalists were evacuated by a Ukrainian team where several were using the Tavor (sans suppressors iirc)
    Are you sure those were Tavors ?

    I believe the UKR have some Tavors (they seem to have some of everything) but they have significant numbers of a domesticated produced bull pup rifle called the “Malyuk” which looks very similar to the Tabor, particularly the “whole hand” trigger guard.

  10. #20
    Member helothar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Are you sure those were Tavors ?

    I believe the UKR have some Tavors (they seem to have some of everything) but they have significant numbers of a domesticated produced bull pup rifle called the “Malyuk” which looks very similar to the Tabor, particularly the “whole hand” trigger guard.
    Not 100% the rifles in the video were Tavors, but a Ukrainian company called Fort makes a copy of the Tavor under license which is why I assumed that was what they were using

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