Civilian Patrols

[Tensaw]

I suspect that people who are not afraid to get their hands dirty with DIY are willing and able to get their hands dirty in other ways as well.

Didn't Jeff Cooper talk about "copers" and "non-copers" at some point?

[High Cross]

Didn't read the article, but in the early 70s the Albuquerque Police went on the last police strike allowed by the state. (Currently work slowdowns and strikes are grounds for removal of POST certs.)

Armed citizen groups patrolled neighborhoods. Went well...

Not sure the majority of today's toters are up to it...

pat

In Newark, New Jersey, Anthony Imperiale's Armed North Ward Protection League kept the City's Little Italy from being burned down by rioters in the 1967 Newark Riots. Italian American Newarkers to this day miss Anthony Imperiale's patrols. He was Curtis Sliwa's inspiration for establishing the Guardian Angels.

[DDTSGM]

I think two things are contributors: a high divorce rate resulting in many absentee fathers, and an overemphasis on excelling in amateur sports.
In my case I sucked at the sports, and my parents didn't want me to have a minibike. They stopped short of forbidding it, but I had to learn to make things run myself, and much of that corelates to other things, like dishwashers.

I can see that and am guilty of it as well with the second set of kids. We adopted our daughters in 2001, they were 3.5 yrs and 2.5 years old, we had fostered them for two years. I was 44 and my wife was 35, we both made okay money, so there wasn't a problem with that, wife was a teacher so she had summers off and I had retired from the Army Reserves so there was nothing for us to do but spoil the kids.

Long story short, both kids swam competitively year-round from the time they were six through high school. Every night swim practice, every morning and evening during the summer swim practice. Every other weekend swim meets.

One of them loved to sing, so she took lessons, the oldest decided she wanted to be in the elementary school orchestra, she ended up playing stringed bass. So now we are juggling swim practice, vocal and bass lessons, as well as going to concerts and recitals. Oh, yeah oldest daughter was playing with our local symphony all through high school.

Oh, yeah, and for three years we go-kart raced most weekends from April to September.

So at the end of high school, both girls were offered swimming scholarships, and the oldest was offered a larger scholarship for her stringed bass. Oldest one took her scholarships and went away to school, hated it and came back home first year. Youngest one saw older sister's experience and said she didn't want to go to college yet.

Neither one of them swims or works out anymore, I don't think the oldest has touched her bass since she came back from college.

I wish I could do it over, for their sakes.

[jnc36rcpd]

If the civilian patrols understand their legal limitations, it might provide some benefit. I would suggest that the civilian patrols develop a friendly and cooperative relationship with local law enforcement.

As with the security guy in the high visibility jacket I see in town center after work, the patrols may have a deterrent effect. Problems may arise with bad guys who realize either party can only call police within their rules of engagement.

The problems I envision are citizens' concerns and an effective response to them. While people get frightened about murders, assaults, and robberies, they become really angry over disorderly conduct, drug use and sales, thefts from and of vehicles and vehicle parts. While the civilian patrols may intimidate some bad guys from committing these acts, any actual action is fraught with legal and physical peril. The civilian patrols can't really detain anyone absent a "citizen's arrest". They certainly can't run name or tag checks through NCIC in hopes of the ultimate immediate problem-solver of an outstanding want. Hopefully, they won't shoot a fleeing property offender.

Best of luck to the civilian patrols, but to paraphrased Mas, I will wait for them here.

[Hambo]

This is a bit of a tangent, but then, this is the PF... I've always thought that one of the reasons that the 1950's was kind of a heyday for American society was, we had all the veterans from WWII walking the streets - and they were not going to put up with any shitty behavior out of anyone.

I have also thought for a long time that, one of the failings of modern America (say in the last 20 years) is that individuals have become too specialized. Need a battery for the car? Call a mechanic. Need a dishwasher installed? Call a plumber. Americans have largely farmed out their personal protection to LE. Not calling for vigilantes here, but if folks assumed a little more responsibility for what goes on around them, we might not be in such a place. That, and calling bullshit when we see it... (and boy is there a lot of bullshit floating around these days).

I'm calling something. The 1950s weren't as sugar coated as people believe. Some of those vets were men that Condi Rice's father was protecting his family from. Some were great men, just like every other generation. People behaved themselves in the small town I grew up in because they would have been ostracized if they didn't. Social pressure kept everybody pretty much in line. No one carried a handgun, although the gas station owner kept a pistol in his desk drawer (he never got robbed, but neither did anyone else). Now, everyone I know has a CWP, but you're saying that people won't take responsibility for their own safety.

[mmc45414]

No one carried a handgun, although the gas station owner kept a pistol in his desk drawer (he never got robbed, but neither did anyone else).

Obviously some exceptions, the pharmacy I walked past on my way to school until sixth grade had a pharmacist with (I think) a three for four kill ratio when he retired, only because one guy was close enough to the door to get away while his buddy was getting killed.

[Tensaw]

I'm calling something. The 1950s weren't as sugar coated as people believe. Some of those vets were men that Condi Rice's father was protecting his family from. Some were great men, just like every other generation. People behaved themselves in the small town I grew up in because they would have been ostracized if they didn't. Social pressure kept everybody pretty much in line. No one carried a handgun, although the gas station owner kept a pistol in his desk drawer (he never got robbed, but neither did anyone else). Now, everyone I know has a CWP, but you're saying that people won't take responsibility for their own safety.

So, you are probably right about the 1950's not being as wonderful as they were made out to be. I wasn't around then, so I can't say for sure. I think what we can say for sure is that every society, at any given time, has its fair share of buttholes walking around - the 1950's included. I guess the question I would pose is, would you feel better about your loved one walking down the street alone at night in Big City/Small Town U.S.A. in the 50's or right now? It seems that *on the whole* things were more stable and just better, than they are right now. For sure, there are a ton of factors at play in this, not just the veterans that were and are present. It sure feels like things started to slide in the 1960's and have trended downward since then. One glaring example of that, as noted upthread, is that now a defender not only has to deal with the "street fight", but there is a good likelihood that same defender will then have to fight again in court. I don't think that was as much of a concern in the 1950's.

RE: your last sentence... I know more than a handful of people who, at least say, they are willing to "take responsibility for their own safety" and I take some comfort in that. But again, I don't see how the idea of gun control becomes a thing without a good many people abdicating the responsibility for their own safety. When golf is far and away a more popular pasttime than the shooting sports, well, you're going to get the society we have right now, which, in my opinion, isn't great. I say we convert all the golf courses into shooting ranges and make America great, again... (seriously).

[BobM]

Obviously some exceptions, the pharmacy I walked past on my way to school until sixth grade had a pharmacist with (I think) a three for four kill ratio when he retired, only because one guy was close enough to the door to get away while his buddy was getting killed.

Long before Ohio issued CCW permits, one of the CVS pharmacists was pretty open with us that he was armed. I don’t believe he had any issues in our town but I think he worked closer to a big city earlier in his career.

[Stephanie B]

I suspect that people who are not afraid to get their hands dirty with DIY are willing and able to get their hands dirty in other ways as well.

Roomie redid her appliances, complete with installation. That was fine with me, but the last time that she replaced her microwave (the old one shit the bed), I installed it over the stove. But I'm getting too old for that shit.

When I was a kid, my brother and I helped Dad with plumbing repairs and installing a new dishwasher. Dad said it was a happy day for him when he could afford to have someone else do the work and he could enjoy the weekends.

[Stephanie B]

Long before Ohio issued CCW permits, one of the CVS pharmacists was pretty open with us that he was armed. I don’t believe he had any issues in our town but I think he worked closer to a big city earlier in his career.

Ohio was pretty stupid in that regard. IIRC, the rule was it was permissible to carry a gun if a prudent man would have armed himself.

A friend carried a Sig P230 in .380. She had an active order of protection against an ex who worked in the next building over. I asked her once about the gun when I caught a glimpse of it in her bag. She said she'd rather have to deal with the cops than the coroner.