Civilian Patrols

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I guess I am having a hard time with the notion that society is currently in a better place that 75 years ago. Maybe I'm wrong because take in too much news..

Depends on your position in society - in that time, discrimination based on religion was legit. So was race. The medical procedures that have saved my life didn't exist. Yeah, June telling Ward to kiss the Beaver good night was either legit or against the law depending on its meaning until 2003. My mother and grandmother had to take a bus ride to Oklahoma in 1945 to visit a sick relative and Grandma was shocked that the African-Americans had to sit in the back. So times were good for the right people. As I said, I'd take today's medical care.

So I can't fix the ceiling fan - I can live with that. I also appreciate looking up almost any topic from my chair.

[Half Moon]

If I’m understanding that poem correctly, it largely laments advances in technology. Well, we got the technology; won’t deny that. (And I’m happy about most of the tech!) But, again, is this thread about tech, or people’s conduct? A fella might also infer from the poem that each passing generation was a little less badass than the last… - which is kind of my point.

It's at least as much about a tendency to romanticize the past. We go all soft focus looking hindwards, forgetting the complexities and warts of times past. We have a lot of ugly in our face but so did those olden times: skidrow, the ghetto, hoovervilles, Yada. There are ugly things I saw growing up that you don't see today. There are ugly things I see now that you didn't see then. It's nuanced.

The drum beat of the softness and degeneracy of the younger generation also has a hallowed history, century on century. There are speeches by Cicero, two millennium ago, that could be updated pretty easy. I see that in meetings pretty regularly when the topic of Millenial behaviour comes up. Does none of us remember when we were twenty? We were frequently just as stupid in our own ways. Immaturity amongst the young, it's pretty much definitional ain't it?

Squint hard enough and iron pyrite looks golden but it's still fool's gold.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Look at cataract surgery - first it was just taking out the lens. You have to stay in the hospital for a week to recovery with your head sandbagged. You had to wear very thick glasses to compensate for having no lens. While you had clear vision, you had quite a few perceptual and depth perception issues. Then came sewing a lens onto your iris - better but still with problems. Now our replacement lens into the capsule is a quantum leap in results.

[Tensaw]

So yeah, yay for technology! I suspect it’s made us softer and probably less smart, I guess that’s the price we pay. I’m terms of personal / societal conduct, I give you, as one example, The Knockout Game. I wonder how that would have gone over in NYC in the 1950’s. I suspect somebody would have been drug into an alley and taught some manners. I’m not seeing that happening at the present time.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

So yeah, yay for technology! I suspect it’s made us softer and probably less smart, I guess that’s the price we pay. I’m terms of personal / societal conduct, I give you, as one example, The Knockout Game. I wonder how that would have gone over in NYC in the 1950’s. I suspect somebody would have been drug into an alley and taught some manners. I’m not seeing that happening at the present time.

That's an empirical question. Technology made us less dead, me especially. As far as my academic field - technology was a tremendous breakthrough in understand neural functioning. Wasn't until single cell recording in 1958 that we had the slightest inclining of how it really worked. So it made me smarter, I suppose. Same with math - the days of mechanical calculators, trig, square root and log tables - I'll pass on that.

It's a battle between priorities - I don't know if a medieval city was such a garden place to walk down.

[Cheap Shot]

One of the more thought provoking threads on PF. Appreciate everyone's input. Lots of disagreement thats causing me to question the validity of my owns beliefs. Some random thoughts I'm struggling with:

What metrics should be used to define "better". Can one definition be agreed on? Can the "facts" used to compare even be agreed on?

We are all prisoners of our history. Emotions can subvert logic and facts

Nostalgia is a human behavior trait, but so is recency bias. Put a frog in a pot of boiling water and it will jump out. Put a frog in a pot of lukewarm water and gradually turn up the heat and it will boil to death. That metaphor seems particularly relevant.

Regarding old generation versus current. I kinda view that as a separate discussion. Who created and raised the new generation? My generation needs to look in the mirror on that one. ( Technically I'm a boomer but I self identify as part of the "No-where Generation") The more recent couple of generations fought a twenty fucking year war and I'm in awe of the burden they shouldered compared to what I was asked. Same goes for the greatest generation that preceded me, and those in my generation that volunteered or were drafted and served.

Is the leadership now better than the leadership in the fifties? sixties? The old book title "Confederacy of Dunces" comes to mind when describing todays so called leaders. By the way, what age and generation are they predominantly from? Is it true you get the leaders you deserve?

Optical illusions can fool the eye, cognitive illusions can fool the mind. Daniel Kahneman (I think)

See this is why I drink.....

[Tensaw]

One of the more thought provoking threads on PF. Appreciate everyone's input. Lots of disagreement thats causing me to question the validity of my owns beliefs. Some random thoughts I'm struggling with:

What metrics should be used to define "better". Can one definition be agreed on? Can the "facts" used to compare even be agreed on?

We are all prisoners of our history. Emotions can subvert logic and facts

Nostalgia is a human behavior trait, but so is recency bias. Put a frog in a pot of boiling water and it will jump out. Put a frog in a pot of lukewarm water and gradually turn up the heat and it will boil to death. That metaphor seems particularly relevant.

Regarding old generation versus current. I kinda view that as a separate discussion. Who created and raised the new generation? My generation needs to look in the mirror on that one. ( Technically I'm a boomer but I self identify as part of the "No-where Generation") The more recent couple of generations fought a twenty fucking year war and I'm in awe of the burden they shouldered compared to what I was asked. Same goes for the greatest generation that preceded me, and those in my generation that volunteered or were drafted and served.
Is the leadership now better than the leadership in the fifties? sixties? The old book title "Confederacy of Dunces" comes to mind when describing todays so called leaders. By the way, what age and generation are they predominantly from? Is it true you get the leaders you deserve?

Optical illusions can fool the eye, cognitive illusions can fool the mind. Daniel Kahneman (I think)

See this is why I drink.....

Lots of disagreement thats causing me to question the validity of my own beliefs... Indeed, I just had an hour-long drive from town back to the wilderness during which I pondered the points in this thread...

We are all prisoners of our history. Heh, Kelly McCann said, "We are all victims of our own experience." And I had been thinking about that before your comment. Those sentiment certainly seems to come into play here.

Is the leadership now better than the leadership in the fifties? sixties? The old book title "Confederacy of Dunces" comes to mind when describing todays so called leaders. By the way, what age and generation are they predominantly from? Is it true you get the leaders you deserve? Yet another thing that came to mind during my drive.

So again, my admittedly limited perspective comes my own personal experience with those who sort of came of age in the 50's. And my assessment of that group is that they were very much salt of the earth people, and people you would want as neighbors. I think one of the problems with trying to have this conversation is that have to speak in general terms, and there will always be glaring exceptions to those generalizations. Too, I don't think any of us were actually there so we are left with working from what we've been told or have read - and likely some of that information is distorted or slanted in some way.

What I am willing to say/concede (with a good amount of confidence) is that human nature has not changed much. And humans, individually, are capable of glorious, and horrendous, things - sometimes the same person will do both the glorious and horrendous things. I suppose the same thing applies to societies at large. Maybe it depends on who and what events you focus on as to whether a time was "good" or not. Surely, every generation has its shitheads and heroes alike.

Which maybe gets us to the leadership part. I was thinking that we very clearly have a failure of leadership in the U.S. at this point in history. And it seems our leaders, who society (I suppose) has elected, seem okay with allowing our current crop of shitheads to run amuck unimpeded (hence the genesis of this thread where citizens had to handle things themselves). I think we all know when standards are not enforced, there will be no standards, and thus we get things like The Knockout Game and organized retail theft. And then when a concerned citizen tries to address these issues, they find it is them who are either hauled off in cuffs, or dragged in the media. How have we come to this sorry pass? I believe it is larger a failure of leadership. But that may be on us.

I also think about the quote about hard times making good men, good men making soft times, and soft times making bad men; or whatever it is. Maybe we can agree that the 50's were hard times compared to today; and today is a soft time.

I don't want to live in the 50's. I like my air conditioning, my medical care, my internet, my ability to communicate via a freakin' satellite (Starlink) with my friends and family. So I like technology,... but I don't fully trust it. Even our electric lines (old tech in anyone's book), go down from time to time. And I fear that with all the tech, we are losing the ability to figure things out for ourselves - such as the fact that a transmission needs to vent a little and so there may be a tube that is clogged... And other, more important things. I very much enjoy using GPS when traveling, but I can still read a map if needed. How many 20 year olds can navigate across the country using a paper map? I mean, we hear of people who don't know how to cook themselves a meal from scratch. I have never wanted to be that person, hence all the DIY. Hey, if you don't care hang your own ceiling fan or install your dishwasher, I get it. But there may come a day when, for whatever reason, you might not be able to hire it done, so it might be handy to have some working knowledge about those things. Heh, I recall an exchange with this hard-ass old man who had a very rough and impoverished upbringing. I was talking with him about cutting some trees for firewood. He said, "You see that thing on the wall over there? as he pointed to the thermostat. "Yes sir." "When I get cold, I get up out of this chair and walk over there and press a button. To hell with building a fire!" But I also know he could build that fire if needed...

Edited to add: I have always been waiting for the other technology shoe to drop; meaning that I understand all this technology could go away pretty quickly, either because I can't afford it, or because of some catastrophe. I think this drives me to want to have some level of ability to do things myself - for better or worse. Hell, I still change my own oil. I think I come by this tendency honestly. My uncle, a literal rocket scientist, literally rebuilt a VW van engine while enroute from Florida to the Grand Canyon. I guess what throws me off is when people have zero interest in wanting to improve in basic knowledge base and life skill stuff. I'm fairly handy, but I also appreciate there is much I do not know, so when I have an opportunity to learn new things from others, I try to make the most of that. I am puzzled by people who actively try to avoid learning new things.

I guess I'm saying that I appreciate the approach to life that I saw that my grandparents had. They worked hard, did not complain, and did not hesitate to help out someone in need. [And if someone wants to say, they wouldn't help out someone from another class/race - they would be wrong. I still have display a leather wallet a black student made for and gifted to my grandfather who was his pipefitting instructor (and I have some other stories about him helping out minorities as well); and my grandparents spent a good bit of money colorizing a portrait of a black lady who worked in some capacity for someone in my family during the 40's or 50's. That portrait hung in a place of honor in my grandparents house. This is in Mississippi if it matters.] And the neighbors of that era who helped raise me were all the same way. The point is, that the people I knew from "the 50's" were pretty solid. Do we have solid people today? Of course. But they sure seem to be outrun by the asshattery that seems to be afoot. Whether or not the 50's as I understand them ever actually existed, it sure would be great if we were able to have more of that ethos today.

Okay, the clouds are tired of hearing me yell now, so I will try to shut up...

[DDTSGM]

One of the more thought provoking threads on PF. Appreciate everyone's input. Lots of disagreement thats causing me to question the validity of my owns beliefs. Some random thoughts I'm struggling with:

What metrics should be used to define "better". Can one definition be agreed on? Can the "facts" used to compare even be agreed on?

I don't know that there can be a metric for individuals, for society as a whole, though, I believe we can use several measures. Examples:

1. Percentage of households living in poverty;
2. Median income;
3. Longevity;
4. Causes of death;
5. Infant mortality rates;
6. Retirement income;
7. Work week hours;
8. Educational levels;
9. Debt to income ratios.

Notice, if you will, that the United States is very high in some areas and lower than you might expect in others.

On a individual basis, I don't believe it is so easy. Sure, even a poor person today probably has a microwave oven, refrigerator, etc. But does that mean their live is better to a person of comparable status 50+ years ago when possessing such items was not the norm? I don't know. This is an excerpt from the link below:

The 1950s were perhaps the most optimistic times for our country within our lifetimes. A polling company found that between 1955 and 1960, about 40% of the people questioned were very happy. This statistic represented a surge in personal contentment that has never since been matched. The 50s have also been identified as a peak smiling time for our nation, with many things in society considered to have gone downhill after that.

https://www.astongardens.com/senior-...been%20matched.

Regarding old generation versus current. I kinda view that as a separate discussion. Who created and raised the new generation? My generation needs to look in the mirror on that one. ( Technically I'm a boomer but I self identify as part of the "No-where Generation") The more recent couple of generations fought a twenty fucking year war and I'm in awe of the burden they shouldered compared to what I was asked. Same goes for the greatest generation that preceded me, and those in my generation that volunteered or were drafted and served.

I think that there has been an increasing level of narcissism and/or hedonism with each generation since, probably, the 50's. With each generation going a little further down the road self-worship or involvement.

Regarding generations fighting wars:

Only about 50 million American men were of age (18 to 45) to serve in the armed forces during WW2. Consequently, since about 16 million men served in the armed forces during the war, that percentage would be about 32% of eligible men. And remember, that after December 1942, the only way you could get into the Army was through the draft, in 1943 the Marines and the Navy followed suit. This was done to preserve the manpower pool in the United States.

From a pool of approximately 27 million (ages 18 to 25) the draft raised 2,215,000 men for military service (in the United States, South Vietnam, and elsewhere) during the Vietnam War era. The majority of service members deployed to South Vietnam were volunteers. Between 1964 and 1973, 9,087,000 men and women would serve in the armed forces in some capacity. Of these 2,594,000 would be deployed to Vietnam. My note: so roughly 34% of all eligible males served.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscr...anpower%20pool.

Since 2001, between 1.9 and 3 million service members have served in post-9/11 war operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, [B]over half of them have deployed more than once. In 1980, about 18% of U.S. adults were veterans, but that share fell to 6% in 2022. A Pew Research Center report in 2012 noted that just 0.5 percent of the American population had served on active duty at any given time during a decade of war; the number was 9 percent at the height of World War II.

My note on all of this: the pool of folks between ages 18 through 25 would remain fairly constant year to year. So the GWOT eligible population to serve (fixed at 31mil in 2020 by my figures) is hard to figure since so many GWOT Vets have had multiple deployments. I would guess less than 3% of those eligible have served.

So, yeah, the GWOT veterans have shouldered an enormous burden, the general population during those years, not so much. Hence the saying - the Armed Forces are at war, America is at the mall.

Is the leadership now better than the leadership in the fifties? sixties? The old book title "Confederacy of Dunces" comes to mind when describing todays so called leaders. By the way, what age and generation are they predominantly from? Is it true you get the leaders you deserve?

I think the leadership of America probably peaked with Presidents Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy. I'm not sure they were as 'political' as those who came after. Although I'm aware Kennedy didn't particularly care for Johnson, but had to take him as VP to get the nomination. In particular Truman and Eisenhower had to deal with the changing landscape after WWII, and the start of the Cold War. I think that both Truman and Eisenhower erred greatly in how they kicked the can down the road on Middle-Eastern Policy, but hindsight is 20/20 and I'm aware of the power that the group supporting, in particular, Israel had.

Eisenhower also famously warned us about what was to come:

A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be might, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction. . . . American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. . . . This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. . . .Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. . . . In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

(I take this as a warning about letting the economy become too beholden to corporate interests as well)

[Tensaw]

I don't know that there can be a metric for individuals, for society as a whole, though, I believe we can use several measures...

Uh,... Dude, you'll need to be finding another sig line after that post. That was super!

[Joe in PNG]

Then again, there's salt of the earth people willing to help others out even today- and they're fairly common. Go back to the 50's, and you'll see lots of complaining and kvetching about those beatniks & greasers & juvenile delinquents and the softness of our society and how we're going downhill because the kids don't want to work hard and how you can't leave your door unlocked anymore...

Author Dan Simmons once noted that history is like a cow- recognizable at a distance, but a dark, squishy mess when you're inside it.