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Thread: Civilian Patrols

  1. #91
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    Wait -- what were people in the 1950's doing inside of cows?

  2. #92
    Not quoting Joe as he has me on ignore.

    It's true there are salt of the earth people today that help folks out. Not sure there are a lot more than there were in the 50's just different issues perhaps?

    One thing that is different now than the 50's and 60's - you didn't hear a lot about medical bankruptcies. Not everyone had insurance and somehow most folks got by. Medicaid and Medicare didn't start until LBJ's administration put them into effect.

    What has happened since then is that many doctors have become corporations. I'm sure many care about their patients, but as their practices have grown they turn some things - such as billing and pricing - over to administrators and lose touch with how much is being charged.

    Back in the 50's if someone came into the emergency room and didn't have money, they were treated and the bill was negotiated or the hospital wrote off the costs. My wife had our second son in December 1977, we had insurance and, IIRC, our delivery total was $750. We had a deductible, but it wasn't much. I had a friend who's wife was pregnant when he came to work for us. She calved out shortly after my son was born. Since he had to pay all the bill, the department did a fundraiser to help him pay the $300.00 medical bill. Yep mine was 750 and his was 300. That was the way it was then, folks helped each other out, even doctors and hospitals worked with folks who didn't have insurance.

    Today, on the other hand, folks that don't have insurance pay full freight and insurance companies get write off's because they won't pay full freight. My most recent firsthand experience with this was when I got a crown fitted at the dentist's. The perky billing lady went over the costs with me and during that process informed me of write off they gave the insurance company - nearly $400.00 - when I asked why they wrote that much off she told me that it was because the insurance company would only pay a certain amount. I said so if I didn't have insurance I'd be paying $1100.00 dollars for this crown instead of $350? She said yes. I asked her then how many of their patients had insurance. She replied nearly all of them (she had yet to realize I was a zealot). I said well if you can stay in business and have this neat waterfall that they just put in during the remodel by writing off nearly a third of 'most of your patient's' bills why do you charge folks without insurance more? She said we don't, we bill everyone the same amount, the insurance companies just pay less. At that point, I realized that I was talking to the wrong person about this, she was just doing her job, and thanked her and left.

    And that's what's happened to medicine in America. Fun fact, a local District Court employee told me that the largest number of District Court filings come from two medical institutions within the district. Apparently they don't try to work out payment plans with the guy who breaks his leg and can't afford the $3,000 copay upfront, they file to garnish his wages.

    Honestly, I don't think it's the doctors, although I do remember a ER Doctor on another forum who bitched about treating people in the ER who couldn't pay, in reality I think it's the administration of these places.

    Shortly after I retired I started volunteering for a local housing organization that I had worked with through my Church on several occasions before I retired. This organization had long relied on volunteers to help do it's work and had rehabbed a lot of houses. Then the founder, who had run the organization without pay, retired. The board brought in a paid director, and in short order there was a whole paid administrative staff. They pretty quickly weaned off volunteers - goodbye DDTSGM! - and began chasing grants and subbing out the work. I'm not sure how cost effective that is, or who monitors.

    So, despite the salt of the earth people that exist today, the practices of corporate America seems to hold sway.
    Adding nothing to the conversation since 2015....

  3. #93
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheap Shot View Post
    Happy to discuss and learn. I'm going to assume we both would like to present our position using facts and evidence to support our opinions. I'll do my best.

    I've never heard the term "sundowner towns", and I'm speculating vagrancy laws were used to keep undesirable people out.

    I don't know how prevalent either of those phenomena were in the 50's. Both seem reasonable methods by local authority to deal with crime and homelessness with limited financial resources. Another method used in the 50's, 60's, and 70's to address homelessness/mental illness was a more robust mental health system thats been all but eliminated.

    Sundowner towns and vagrancy laws seem to be a very narrow slice of the fifties and in and of itself arent compelling enough for me to say that we are better off now than back then. Currently, most of our inner cities are uninhabitable due to crime, drug use and homelessness. I dont think we are better off now nor do I think crime, drug use and homelessness are being dealt with better.
    So now neither of us needs personal experience from the 50s to discuss it? Glad to hear it.

    Of course it's a narrow slice, just read the quote I responded to: " I guess the question I would pose is, would you feel better about your loved one walking down the street alone at night in Big City/Small Town U.S.A. in the 50's or right now?" Narrow question, narrow answer.

    For me, the answer is there's no difference in safety in regional small towns here at night *if you're a white male*. I wouldn't feel safe for my unaccompanied female loved one to be out in either decade, but now at least carrying a handgun on your person is legal if you must. Black male? Much more today than the 50s. The KKK still had an open and accepted presence well past the 50s in my home town, and I *do* have personal experience of seeing them pass out pamphlets in the town square near the court house and at the only intersection in town significant enough to have traffic waiting at a red light for them to approach.

    I work in one of those 'uninhabitable' inner cities and am there after dark on my shift routinely. Lots of folks live there, so I think they'd disagree with your assessment. It's not my thing, I don't like dense American cities even if there was zero crime and homelessness, but I'm not seeing the city collapsing. There's a patchwork of shitholes that nobody who's not willing to engage in violence should be in after dark and there's places safe as mumsy's arms.

    FWIW, I'm in Lisbon at the moment. You can walk in the park here at night and see single women sitting on park benches reading or just sitting. I don't know if the reason is cultural, legal, or demographics, but it's far from the same feel as a similar sized and laid out US city. I think maybe a lot of it is lack of car culture. There's just so many more 'normal' people out walking and generally being outside among other people vs metal boxes zipping by each other. Less anonymous feel, more connection. Walking for non-recreational purposes in most of the US means you are a poor, probably a vagrant.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  4. #94
    The issue with civilian patrols isn't killing bad guys up to no good but the experience and skill that goes into 'That drunk will be ok, but if we leave that drunk here he will kill his girlfriend and we'll be back'. Of course that's also an issue with policing but having amateurs doing it seems unlikely to help.

    As far as the 50s and whatnot, vagrancy laws and aggressive policing to remove undesirables is something I look at in a different light as I age. You're going to have abuses whichever way you go. Figuring out a humane way to let people sleep outside without ending up with disease ridden nightmares on every corner is going to be an important part of the next ten years.

  5. #95
    You can always call a "Social Worker"......right.

  6. #96
    Revolvers Revolvers 1911s Stephanie B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dog Face Gremlin View Post
    I went through a number of towns that I know. All it says is "don't know" or "probably" with no information whatsoever.
    If we have to march off into the next world, let us walk there on the bodies of our enemies.

  7. #97
    Four String Fumbler Joe in PNG's Avatar
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    The thing about small towns where everyone knows everyone is that everyone knows everyone. Do something wrong (or slightly outside of social norms), and you'll be the topic of conversation for decades.
    "You win 100% of the fights you avoid. If you're not there when it happens, you don't lose." - William Aprill
    "I've owned a guitar for 31 years and that sure hasn't made me a musician, let alone an expert. It's made me a guy who owns a guitar."- BBI

  8. #98
    Member Zincwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Do you think sundowner towns and vagrancy laws are a myth or do you think there should be zero discussion of historical fact once the last participant was dead? Either way, a ridiculous post.
    The Arbery murder is representative of the darkside of this stuff.

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