Clarity on Oklahoma CCW

[fatdog]

For purpose of this particular scenario and again functionally applied...

Cross-deputization doesn't change anything and does not expand jurisdiction - only options. It allows the officer to enforce rules of both legal constructs. A tribal officer that is cross-deputized as a state/county/city official can apply tribal law to those of it's jurisdiction, or state/county/city law to those of it's jurisdiction. If a non-native commits a tribal CCW violation they are still not subject to tribal jurisdiction, only state/county/city applies. If no state/county/city violation has occurred, it's not actionable.

Think of it in terms of traffic: A state highway bisects a reservation and there is parallel law in both tribal and state code such as a speed limit. Tribal officers can cite natives to tribal court, and then non-natives to state court. This isn't uncommon. Similarly, state/county/city officials can also be cross-credentialed as tribal officers with the same effect, but that is less common usually for reasons of sovereignty and local politics.

As @Chuck Whitlock notes, it gets more complicated with some types and levels of violation - such as VAWA, or civil matters. There's also some quirks in intersections of federal, state, and tribal fish and wildlife law.

There's an enormous amount of bad info and instruction out there on this topic.

Also thank you, what I am taking from this is if one is driving across any res, in most states at least, and CCW'ing in compliance with state law, there is nothing that puts you in real legal jeopardy. Based on bad info in the past I have gone to the trouble of taking off the gun, unloading and stowing it to cross a big reservation stretch in my vehicle if I knew the tribe prohibited CCW on the res. E.g. Wind River, Pine Ridge, etc. I am reading that is really not necessary if I intend to make a more or less continuous journey and I am in compliance with state law.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Thanks!

Specifically regarding firearms carry... If I were to get stopped by tribal PD for some traffic infraction and was carrying a weapon, would there be any repercussions related to tribal laws?

I think what you've said above is... that tribal PD doesn't have jurisdiction over non-members, so, they can ticket me for the infraction (??) but cannot (?) arrest me for carrying on tribal roads even when tribal law might make it illegal (for tribal members) to do so... ??

For purpose of this particular scenario and again functionally applied...

Cross-deputization doesn't change anything and does not expand jurisdiction - only options. It allows the officer to enforce rules of both legal constructs. A tribal officer that is cross-deputized as a state/county/city official can apply tribal law to those of it's jurisdiction, or state/county/city law to those of it's jurisdiction. If a non-native commits a tribal CCW violation they are still not subject to tribal jurisdiction, only state/county/city applies. If no state/county/city violation has occurred, it's not actionable.

Think of it in terms of traffic: A state highway bisects a reservation and there is parallel law in both tribal and state code such as a speed limit. Tribal officers can cite natives to tribal court, and then non-natives to state court. This isn't uncommon. Similarly, state/county/city officials can also be cross-credentialed as tribal officers with the same effect, but that is less common usually for reasons of sovereignty and local politics.

As @Chuck Whitlock notes, it gets more complicated with some types and levels of violation - such as VAWA, or civil matters. There's also some quirks in intersections of federal, state, and tribal fish and wildlife law.

There's an enormous amount of bad info and instruction out there on this topic.

@RoyGBiv,

"Specifically regarding firearms carry"...consult an attorney who is licensed in and familiar with that aspect of the law. There will be a lot of things dependent on the laws of the particular state, the particular tribe, any MOU's between them, et. al.

Also understand that most, if not all, reservations are not walled-off with border guards. IIRC, Oklahoma in particular doesn't really have reservations within a defined border, and tribal lands are kind of a checkerboard arrangement.

As @ST911 stated, things can get complicated. Tribes are separate sovereign entities, generally (in a legal sense) with the same status as the various states, but are also somewhat protectorates of the US government as well. One training that I was required to attend was Jurisdictional Issues in Indian Country (something like that). The class I attended was put on by the US Attorney's Office for the District of Colorado. Although it was mainly for tribal and BIA officers, per the instructors it was structured more like it was for 2nd year law students.

Jurisdiction (state/tribal/federal) is determined by level of crime (Major Crimes Act) and by whether actor and victim are Native or non-native. There can be concurrent and/or exclusive jurisdiction.

......I was going to post some hypothetical situations, but my brain doesn't want to go that deep into the weeds this morning.

[RoyGBiv]

@RoyGBiv,

"Specifically regarding firearms carry"...consult an attorney who is licensed in and familiar with that aspect of the law. There will be a lot of things dependent on the laws of the particular state, the particular tribe, any MOU's between them, et. al.

Thanks Chuck!

I'm expecting some increase in travel to OK for work, instead of just the occasional quick toe over the border to WinStar...

Not my thread but hopefully my questions were helpful to the OP as well..

[Spartan1980]

Yes, my membership will lapse soon at USSA and I haven’t been since that was announced.

Oil Capital has multiple matches a month. So does Eric Fusion/Guns Of Glory in Bartlesville. Doing a search on Practiscore I see 2A has matches, several upcoming in Pawnee, Oklahoma City and more. It may take some driving, but between Steel Challenge, IDPA, USPSA and other less organized matches held at multiple clubs throughout the month, they are available. Add to that clubs in KS and AR if someone wants to compete they can fairly easily make a match a month without a lot of drive time.

Some of my competition buddies hit a match 3 out of 4 weekends a month for sure.

It's truly sad what's happened to USSA. I was lucky enough to shoot many matches there back in it's heyday. Oil Capital is a good one but I haven't made it over there in a long time. I used to shoot the practical rifle match every month, also a few USPSA matches. Oklahoma is positioned to where you can shoot a match every weekend if you can drive a bit. I used to do that alot, OKC, Ada, Duncan, Ponca City, Tulsa, Wichita Falls or Ft. Smith were on the agenda every weekend. I only had trouble deciding which matches I was going to shoot! I miss those days.

[rawkguitarist]

It's truly sad what's happened to USSA. I was lucky enough to shoot many matches there back in it's heyday. Oil Capital is a good one but I haven't made it over there in a long time. I used to shoot the practical rifle match every month, also a few USPSA matches. Oklahoma is positioned to where you can shoot a match every weekend if you can drive a bit. I used to do that alot, OKC, Ada, Duncan, Ponca City, Tulsa, Wichita Falls or Ft. Smith were on the agenda every weekend. I only had trouble deciding which matches I was going to shoot! I miss those days.

Yeah thanks for backing me up on all the matches in the area. You just have to plan to drive a little. I’m dealing with a bad case of tennis elbow so I haven’t competed in a few months. But when I can shoot, I hit 2 or 3 matches a month.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Thanks Chuck!

I'm expecting some increase in travel to OK for work, instead of just the occasional quick toe over the border to WinStar...

Not my thread but hopefully my questions were helpful to the OP as well..

You are quite welcome.

I really believe that if you follow the 3x S rule, you'll be just fine 99.98% of the time.

It's that 0.02% that concerns us, though!

[JCS]

Yes, my membership will lapse soon at USSA and I haven’t been since that was announced.

Oil Capital has multiple matches a month. So does Eric Fusion/Guns Of Glory in Bartlesville. Doing a search on Practiscore I see 2A has matches, several upcoming in Pawnee, Oklahoma City and more. It may take some driving, but between Steel Challenge, IDPA, USPSA and other less organized matches held at multiple clubs throughout the month, they are available. Add to that clubs in KS and AR if someone wants to compete they can fairly easily make a match a month without a lot of drive time.

Some of my competition buddies hit a match 3 out of 4 weekends a month for sure.

It's truly sad what's happened to USSA. I was lucky enough to shoot many matches there back in its heyday. Oil Capital is a good one but I haven't made it over there in a long time. I used to shoot the practical rifle match every month, also a few USPSA matches. Oklahoma is positioned to where you can shoot a match every weekend if you can drive a bit. I used to do that alot, OKC, Ada, Duncan, Ponca City, Tulsa, Wichita Falls or Ft. Smith were on the agenda every weekend. I only had trouble deciding which matches I was going to shoot! I miss those days.

I suppose we should clarify what types of matches so we don't confuse the OP. It sounds like they are moving around Tulsa, which is better for options. There are options for a variety of matches if you include rifle stuff. But if you live in the OKC metro area there is only one club within 2 hrs that shoots matches. Duncan doesn't do USPSA anymore and neither does Ponca. If you're in Tulsa you can drive to AR. But for me it's about as close to drive to Wichita Falls as Guns of Glory.

There are certainly worse areas and maybe it's because I know people who can shoot USPSA every week if they want, but I wouldn't call OK a strong state for matches. Tulsa, yes but not Oklahoma. But I only shoot USPSA and I'm viewing it through that tinted lens. It seems to be dying here.

Y'all got it good in Tulsa area!

[rawkguitarist]

I suppose we should clarify what types of matches so we don't confuse the OP. It sounds like they are moving around Tulsa, which is better for options. There are options for a variety of matches if you include rifle stuff. But if you live in the OKC metro area there is only one club within 2 hrs that shoots matches. Duncan doesn't do USPSA anymore and neither does Ponca. If you're in Tulsa you can drive to AR. But for me it's about as close to drive to Wichita Falls as Guns of Glory.

There are certainly worse areas and maybe it's because I know people who can shoot USPSA every week if they want, but I wouldn't call OK a strong state for matches. Tulsa, yes but not Oklahoma. But I only shoot USPSA and I'm viewing it through that tinted lens. It seems to be dying here.

Y'all got it good in Tulsa area!

Ok, within a 120 mile radius drive from Tulsa we're good to go! Luckily furthest I ever drive is Bartlesville/GOG.

[Spartan1980]

I suppose we should clarify what types of matches so we don't confuse the OP. It sounds like they are moving around Tulsa, which is better for options. There are options for a variety of matches if you include rifle stuff. But if you live in the OKC metro area there is only one club within 2 hrs that shoots matches. Duncan doesn't do USPSA anymore and neither does Ponca. If you're in Tulsa you can drive to AR. But for me it's about as close to drive to Wichita Falls as Guns of Glory.

There are certainly worse areas and maybe it's because I know people who can shoot USPSA every week if they want, but I wouldn't call OK a strong state for matches. Tulsa, yes but not Oklahoma. But I only shoot USPSA and I'm viewing it through that tinted lens. It seems to be dying here.

Y'all got it good in Tulsa area!

Wellington Kansas is in range too. They do GSSF, Steel Challenge and 3 Gun. Some others too.

[DDTSGM]

Wellington Kansas is in range too. They do GSSF, Steel Challenge and 3 Gun. Some others too.

I understand the owner's son is going to try to set up USPSA matches in the future. Don't know what the time frame is though.