Clarity on Oklahoma CCW

[Chuck Whitlock]

Simplest functional way to look at it: Tribes don't have jurisdiction over non-natives* but can set rules of conduct on tribal lands and remove or trespass violators similar to a private property owner. Tribal LE can stop, search, detain, hand-off to state, city, county, township, etc of jurisdiction when tribes have no jurisdiction of person. Offenses by non-natives can go federal or state/local, but doesn't go tribal.*

Tribal ≠ federal. "Sovereign nation" doesn't mean what most think. It's patchworked and nuanced, but that's the gist.

This is essentially it. I was a tribal cop in Nebraska for a number of years. In my case, I was cross-deputized/commissioned with the state, so I could enforce state law as well.

* Tribes can have jurisdiction over non-natives in domestic violence cases, if the tribal court system meets certain requirements. This came from the 2013 reauthorization of the VAWA.

https://nnedv.org/content/vawa-2013-reauthorization/

[RoyGBiv]

This is essentially it. I was a tribal cop in Nebraska for a number of years. In my case, I was cross-deputized/commissioned with the state, so I could enforce state law as well.

* Tribes can have jurisdiction over non-natives in domestic violence cases, if the tribal court system meets certain requirements. This came from the 2013 reauthorization of the VAWA.

https://nnedv.org/content/vawa-2013-reauthorization/

Thanks!

Specifically regarding firearms carry... If I were to get stopped by tribal PD for some traffic infraction and was carrying a weapon, would there be any repercussions related to tribal laws?

I think what you've said above is... that tribal PD doesn't have jurisdiction over non-members, so, they can ticket me for the infraction (??) but cannot (?) arrest me for carrying on tribal roads even when tribal law might make it illegal (for tribal members) to do so... ??

[Half Moon]

Thanks!

Specifically regarding firearms carry... If I were to get stopped by tribal PD for some traffic infraction and was carrying a weapon, would there be any repercussions related to tribal laws?

I think what you've said above is... that tribal PD doesn't have jurisdiction over non-members, so, they can ticket me for the infraction (??) but cannot (?) arrest me for carrying on tribal roads even when tribal law might make it illegal (for tribal members) to do so... ??

Depends on your locale. For instance Oregon requires permission from the chief judge of the tribal court for a licensed canceled carrier on tribal land. I'm assuming that's law but could be wrong. It's definitely mentioned in the Oregon CCW course. So if it's state law and the tribal police are cross-deputized (not uncommon) it could be a problem.

[rawkguitarist]

I’ll be moving pretty close to Tulsa, likely Broken Arrow. Really excited to get out there. My Dad loves it there, he’s on a small farm in Wagoner.

Is USSA still the place to go for a decent range? Do they still offer memberships? I don’t see anything about them on their website. I’m blown away that they quit running matches

Edit: just got this message from the asst. manager at USSA. Kind of a joke. $25/per day of shooting + no matches is super lame.

Man that pisses me off. It was $20 last time I heard. I REALLY will avoid going there now and won't be nice about it if someone asks about their business. They've given the middle finger to serious shooters. The problem is... USSA is an excellent range. I've only been to a few in the country that are close to it. There are lots of other ranges though. Oil Capital Gun Club is probably going to be the main place now since they still offer matches. You do have to have a friend that's a member there to go shoot... or go to the matches. There's some indoor ranges like 2A and the Red Castle indoor range in tulsa. Also, again Guns Of Glory about 45 min from Tulsa. Suffice it to say, there's plenty of places to shoot, not just pay-to-shoot business ranges.

Some people may be surprised how metropolitan Tulsa and Oklahoma City are. There's a decent amount of larger city vibe and activities. But you drive 25 to 35 min in any direction and you're in places that are extremely open and rural. Lots of nice lakes and camp grounds, state parks etc. My own personal range is a 30 min drive south of Tulsa and it's a quaint area where there's 40, 50, 100 acre plots with single houses on them.

I do like living here quite a bit.

[rawkguitarist]

Thanks!

Specifically regarding firearms carry... If I were to get stopped by tribal PD for some traffic infraction and was carrying a weapon, would there be any repercussions related to tribal laws?

I think what you've said above is... that tribal PD doesn't have jurisdiction over non-members, so, they can ticket me for the infraction (??) but cannot (?) arrest me for carrying on tribal roads even when tribal law might make it illegal (for tribal members) to do so... ??

I have no idea about tribal law. I do know there are real tribal jurisdictions and from time to time I see tribal officers. I can say, I've NEVER been pulled over by a tribal officer and I've never heard of any person getting pulled over by one or anyone caught in a legal problem with tribal law enforcement of anything. Let alone carrying of firearms. Where you run into tribal law enforcement, it's usually in smaller towns.

I'm sorry I keep singing the same tune... Oklahoma is a very 2nd Amendment friendly state. It's my perception that any legal issues that do occur with non-tribal members are between the tribes and the cities/counties.

[ST911]

Thanks! Specifically regarding firearms carry... If I were to get stopped by tribal PD for some traffic infraction and was carrying a weapon, would there be any repercussions related to tribal laws? I think what you've said above is... that tribal PD doesn't have jurisdiction over non-members, so, they can ticket me for the infraction (??) but cannot (?) arrest me for carrying on tribal roads even when tribal law might make it illegal (for tribal members) to do so... ??

Depends on your locale. For instance Oregon requires permission from the chief judge of the tribal court for a licensed canceled carrier on tribal land. I'm assuming that's law but could be wrong. It's definitely mentioned in the Oregon CCW course. So if it's state law and the tribal police are cross-deputized (not uncommon) it could be a problem.

For purpose of this particular scenario and again functionally applied...

Cross-deputization doesn't change anything and does not expand jurisdiction - only options. It allows the officer to enforce rules of both legal constructs. A tribal officer that is cross-deputized as a state/county/city official can apply tribal law to those of it's jurisdiction, or state/county/city law to those of it's jurisdiction. If a non-native commits a tribal CCW violation they are still not subject to tribal jurisdiction, only state/county/city applies. If no state/county/city violation has occurred, it's not actionable.

Think of it in terms of traffic: A state highway bisects a reservation and there is parallel law in both tribal and state code such as a speed limit. Tribal officers can cite natives to tribal court, and then non-natives to state court. This isn't uncommon. Similarly, state/county/city officials can also be cross-credentialed as tribal officers with the same effect, but that is less common usually for reasons of sovereignty and local politics.

As @Chuck Whitlock notes, it gets more complicated with some types and levels of violation - such as VAWA, or civil matters. There's also some quirks in intersections of federal, state, and tribal fish and wildlife law.

There's an enormous amount of bad info and instruction out there on this topic.

[Half Moon]

For purpose of this particular scenario and again functionally applied...

Cross-deputization doesn't change anything and does not expand jurisdiction - only options. It allows the officer to enforce rules of both legal constructs. A tribal officer that is cross-deputized as a state/county/city official can apply tribal law to those of it's jurisdiction, or state/county/city law to those of it's jurisdiction. If a non-native commits a tribal CCW violation they are still not subject to tribal jurisdiction, only state/county/city applies. If no state/county/city violation has occurred, it's not actionable.

Think of it in terms of traffic: A state highway bisects a reservation and there is parallel law in both tribal and state code such as a speed limit. Tribal officers can cite natives to tribal court, and then non-natives to state court. This isn't uncommon. Similarly, state/county/city officials can also be cross-credentialed as tribal officers with the same effect, but that is less common usually for reasons of sovereignty and local politics.

As @Chuck Whitlock notes, it gets more complicated with some types and levels of violation - such as VAWA, or civil matters. There's also some quirks in intersections of federal, state, and tribal fish and wildlife law.

There's an enormous amount of bad info and instruction out there on this topic.

Yeah, pretty much knew all that. My fault for not being clear I'm sure. I was referencing the ability to enforce state laws against non-tribsl members where cross-deputized.

[Eric_L]

USSA is a great looking facility, but they seem to have trouble keeping consistent operations. It could be amazing. I remember when the Tac Conference was there. I lived about 10 miles away. It was nice.

[rawkguitarist]

Man that pisses me off. It was $20 last time I heard. I REALLY will avoid going there now and won't be nice about it if someone asks about their business. They've given the middle finger to serious shooters. The problem is... USSA is an excellent range. I've only been to a few in the country that are close to it. There are lots of other ranges though. Oil Capital Gun Club is probably going to be the main place now since they still offer matches. You do have to have a friend that's a member there to go shoot... EDIT - But, membership not required for competition. There's some indoor ranges like 2A and the Red Castle indoor range in tulsa. Also, again Guns Of Glory about 45 min from Tulsa. Suffice it to say, there's plenty of places to shoot, not just pay-to-shoot business ranges.

Some people may be surprised how metropolitan Tulsa and Oklahoma City are. There's a decent amount of larger city vibe and activities. But you drive 25 to 35 min in any direction and you're in places that are extremely open and rural. Lots of nice lakes and camp grounds, state parks etc. My own personal range is a 30 min drive south of Tulsa and it's a quaint area where there's 40, 50, 100 acre plots with single houses on them.

I do like living here quite a bit.

Well... I was trying to edit my own post, now I can't delete quoting of myself. Regarding Oil Capital - you DON'T have to have a membership to go to the competitions. That'd be goofy wouldn't it.

[RoyGBiv]

For purpose of this particular scenario and again functionally applied...

Cross-deputization doesn't change anything and does not expand jurisdiction - only options. It allows the officer to enforce rules of both legal constructs. A tribal officer that is cross-deputized as a state/county/city official can apply tribal law to those of it's jurisdiction, or state/county/city law to those of it's jurisdiction. If a non-native commits a tribal CCW violation they are still not subject to tribal jurisdiction, only state/county/city applies. If no state/county/city violation has occurred, it's not actionable.

Think of it in terms of traffic: A state highway bisects a reservation and there is parallel law in both tribal and state code such as a speed limit. Tribal officers can cite natives to tribal court, and then non-natives to state court. This isn't uncommon. Similarly, state/county/city officials can also be cross-credentialed as tribal officers with the same effect, but that is less common usually for reasons of sovereignty and local politics.

As @Chuck Whitlock notes, it gets more complicated with some types and levels of violation - such as VAWA, or civil matters. There's also some quirks in intersections of federal, state, and tribal fish and wildlife law.

There's an enormous amount of bad info and instruction out there on this topic.

Thanks for the clarification. Much appreciated.