Reverse Horseshoe Grip inducing slide stop malfunctions on Glocks

[UNM1136]

PF is a fairly tight core community.

Daryl Bolke. Glock Grip.

Do some homework so we can recognize the greats, even if they don't want the recognition.

If you come up blank, PM me in a couple of weeks and I will point you to spots... with non chicken nuggets.

pat

[High Cross]

If your grip is causing you intermittent malfunctions, your grip is either inconsistent, or the problem intermittently. Are there any other explanations?

I bought a Mantis X and analyzing my trigger presses learned my grip and press wasn't as consistent as I thought it was. I have long used the wedge grip, along with the DB Glock grip. My first FTU LT had the mantra "don't let your equipment defeat you". A more reasoned way of putting it over two decades later is "know your equipment well enough it won't have a role in your defeat".

I remember Todd G teaching a sorta reverse horseshoe grip in AFHF a little over a decade ago. Todd was fast, and accurate. It didn't work for me. At all.

I have big hands, and if I didn't pay attention and internalize my grip my duty Sig would not lock open, and my current G17.4 would either lock open early or not at all.

Welcome to PF.. @Clusterfrack, among others, is someone I have a lot of time to listen to.

In firearms training there have been revolutionary changes and evolutionary changes. There is a lot of Not-Invented-Here syndrome, and, based on observations, a WHOLE LOT of sacred cows that need to be slaughtered.

The Modern Technique was modern 30-50 years ago. We owe the Good Colonel a debt for advancing things. And based on his personality he may not have been able to do the update without a lot of work.

A lot of shooters here are putting in the work today. With today's realities, to drive this craft forward.

I am up past my bedtime. See you later.

pat

On another note, gunsite seems to have moved away from a lot of the old modern technique. None of my instructors used a classic weaver. All were shooting Iso except one. Drawstroke was not what Cooper taught. They had a long time contract with the USMC during the GWOT and they had to evolve to stay relevant. They even teach rifle shooting squared up. I think Cooper would be rolling over in his grave for a lot of what they teach now. One of my instructors said the way Gunsite used to teach the weaver was "ridiculous and unrealistic." Their clearing technique using the loaded step was another improvement.

[John Hearne]

I think Cooper would be rolling over in his grave for a lot of what they teach now. One of my instructors said the way Gunsite used to teach the weaver was "ridiculous and unrealistic." Their clearing technique using the loaded step was another improvement.

I don't know. Cooper was pretty big on figuring out what worked. Getting two hands on the gun and getting it to eye level was revolutionary back in its day. I suspect he'd write that if all you're going to fire is "poodle shooters" then squared up is just fine.

[High Cross]

I don't know. Cooper was pretty big on figuring out what worked. Getting two hands on the gun and getting it to eye level was revolutionary back in its day. I suspect he'd write that if all you're going to fire is "poodle shooters" then squared up is just fine.

You knew him I know, so I will certainly take your word. Your reputation in the firearms community is tremendous in and of itself. A lot of people in the shooting community I speak to think Gunsite is still using the same curriculum they would have in 1975. I have taken a fair amount of training courses and overall and 250 was the most thorough I had as a civilian. For example post engagement sequence was not the look over the shoulders dance I was used to put actually searching with the gun high and low. So they seemed to have modernized a lot for lack of a better term.

[HCM]

I don't know. Cooper was pretty big on figuring out what worked. Getting two hands on the gun and getting it to eye level was revolutionary back in its day. I suspect he'd write that if all you're going to fire is "poodle shooters" then squared up is just fine.

Cooper was an innovative for a long time, until he wasn’t. He got sidetracked for a few decades where he fell into the trap of thinking he had figured out “the way.” Then shortly after the GWOT started a bit of the old Cooper came back and he started embracing some new things again like red dots on carbines, Glocks etc.

[runcible]

FWIW, I am a proponent for a similar method of recoil management to what's depicted in the first linked video. My observation is that it's a lower time commitment to effect similar performance goals with students, relative to methods emphasizing a timing element for recoil-management/trigger-operation and/or a 90/10 mode of trigger operation. Certainly, it's a means for slighter and/or less athletic shooters to bypass traditional failure modes and friction points.

As far as the OP's original question, "Reverse Horseshoe Grip inducing slide stop malfunctions on Glocks," advancing the support-hand's thumb further forward and then offsetting the shooting-hand's thumb on or between the first two knuckles of the support-hand's thumb, generally alleviates resting pressure on the slide-lock/release lever, and the descending failure mode. Craig, if memory serves, situationally advocates for indexing ("chocking") the shooting-hand's thumb in the recess between wrist prominence and first knuckle of the support-hand thumb. To the best of my knowledge, we are both deriving this in part from the adaptation of classical revolver shooting methods, separate from the stacked thumb-tuck that is still taught in some places.

[UNM1136]

FWIW, I am a proponent for a similar method of recoil management to what's depicted in the first linked video. My observation is that it's a lower time commitment to effect similar performance goals with students, relative to methods emphasizing a timing element for recoil-management/trigger-operation and/or a 90/10 mode of trigger operation. Certainly, it's a means for slighter and/or less athletic shooters to bypass traditional failure modes and friction points.

As far as the OP's original question, "Reverse Horseshoe Grip inducing slide stop malfunctions on Glocks," advancing the support-hand's thumb further forward and then offsetting the shooting-hand's thumb on or between the first two knuckles of the support-hand's thumb, generally alleviates resting pressure on the slide-lock/release lever, and the descending failure mode. Craig, if memory serves, situationally advocates for indexing ("chocking") the shooting-hand's thumb in the recess between wrist prominence and first knuckle of the support-hand thumb. To the best of my knowledge, we are both deriving this in part from the adaptation of classical revolver shooting methods, separate from the stacked thumb-tuck that is still taught in some places.

No need to research, now. Exactly right.

pat

[rdtompki]

Background: "Average" old shooter transitioned to RDS about a year ago. Currently competing with a Staccato P in steel challenge.

Took me a bit to rework my draw coming from a decade of work with iron sight 1911s. I tried most every grip to manage the dot in recoil even though my sub-factory PF rounds are reasonably soft. I don't lack of hand strength, but all the usual techniques produced uncertain results and the harder I gripped the more the dot bounced. I had settled on a softer grip that yielded repeatable dot behavior that I could manage albeit not ideal for very fast transitions or needed double taps.

Prior to looking through this thread I had become concerned that this softer grip would not serve me well in an actual self defense situation where my instincts would be to grip the gun in a more aggressive fashion and my EDC, a Staccato C2, has a bit more snap than the P.

Reading through this thread I thought to give the horse shoe grip a try. Observations:
1. The grip completely decoupled my strong hand grip from my trigger finger. Put three shots one on top of the other at about 10 yards. Shooting and practicing for steel challenge I don't spend a lot of time on this sort of static shooting.
2. The dot barely moves during the firing cycle. I could immediately apply this grip to actual practice and noticed immediate results. I was initially concerned about the amount of practice required out of the holster but didn't find this to be an issue.

Practice will be required to fine tune and improve repeatability, but until something better comes along I'm grateful to all who contributed to this thread. I will have to further dremel the r/h side of the 2011 safety since this grip does increase upward pressure of my strong hand on the grip albeit not enough to engage the safety.